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OK Guys
For reasons that I would rather not disclose I need to drop the pan on my 289. It's still in the car so I'll be doing the job from below. The question; I'm leaning towards a one piece pan gasket and wonder which one the group recommends. Second question: I have read that the original mid 60s oil pans do not seal well with the silicon one piece gaskets. Any truth to this?
And the last question; The drain plug on my pan is a self tapping type as the threads were stripped in the pan at one time or another. With the sealing issues with the one piece gasket, if true, and the stripped threads I just might purchase a new pan while I have the old one off. Any recommendations on a quality STOCK front sump pan?
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I have been building small block Ford engines for many years. I have had oil pan gasket failures twice in my 70 years, and both were the one piece blue felpro gaskets.
They leaked at the end seal. I have learned those gaskets are great for use on the side rails but pure RTV is a much better solution on the end seals. The last one I did, I cut the end seals off and used RTV only. No sealant is required on the side rails. No problems doing it that way.
In my opinion, though… just use RTV on the whole thing and be done with it. Be sure it is clean and place a 100% coverage layer on both mating surfaces, not very thick except the end seals. Torque the bolts tight while the sealer is still wet. It will never leak or seep, and is easy to get loose if you ever need to remove the pan. Be sure you don’t get RTV in the blind bolt holes or the bolts won’t tighten up properly.
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Interestingly, I've noticed than a lot of OEMs now seal the oil pan with silicone. Some also use o-ring style gaskets. I can tel you 100% what not to use: anything cork. Cork eventually soaks through with oil and weeps, making a mess.
I've had good luck with the one piece gaskets, but I also add a little silicone to the end seals and particularly where the end seals meet the rail seals (both sides).
The only downside I can see to using straight silicone is that its a mess to clean up, but in fairness how often do you remove the oil pan? Hopefully never.
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I have the Fel-broke one piece gasket (blue) and a cheap front sump pan.
I used RTV at corners…it has started seeping a little…just enough to be annoying.
Next round, I will use a skim coat of the Ultra Gray on end seals and tighten while wet.
My Bash Thrash rear axle seal replacement on a Sunday morning a few years ago is still holding up well…gaskets not available until Monday.
Ultra Gray is not as slippery as other types of RTV…it is kinda like RTV and Permatex #2 mixed together.
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Thanks guys. Seems RTV is in all answers. I do like Ultra Gray. While MS's all RTV method is intriguing I think I want to at least use a gasket along with the RTV.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
The only downside I can see to using straight silicone is that its a mess to clean up, but in fairness how often do you remove the oil pan? Hopefully never.
X-2^^^^^
I'mma big believer in RTV/forma-gasket. Especially on pieces that rarely get removed and need to seal water or oil...oil pans...front cover...water pump...even valve covers.
6s6
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I do not follow the argument that RTV is hard to clean up. I have a very sharp 1” wood chisel that takes it right off.
Also, I bought s spray can of FORD SILICONE GASKET REMOVER for $1 at a swap meet. You spray it on the stuff and it almost just wipes off with a rag.
To remove a glued-on pan, I use the same wood chisel as a wedge. I drive it between block and pan and walk away. Come back later and the pan has magically separated from the block.
I like RTV without a gasket because you can torque the bolts tight. Then, they never back out like they do over time with a gasket that eventually compresses.
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IIRC the one piece silicone gasket I used had metal inserts molded into the bolt holes it to prevent over torquing and squashing the gasket..
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MS wrote:
I do not follow the argument that RTV is hard to clean up. I have a very sharp 1” wood chisel that takes it right off.
Also, I bought s spray can of FORD SILICONE GASKET REMOVER for $1 at a swap meet. You spray it on the stuff and it almost just wipes off with a rag.
To remove a glued-on pan, I use the same wood chisel as a wedge. I drive it between block and pan and walk away. Come back later and the pan has magically separated from the block.
I like RTV without a gasket because you can torque the bolts tight. Then, they never back out like they do over time with a gasket that eventually compresses.
RTV may be easy enough to clean off a flat surface, but what about down inside the timing cover/main cap recesses where the end seals go? I'll concede that part of how much of a mess it is depends on how it is initially applied as well.
All the 1-piece gaskets I've used had the metal crush collars Rudi notes. I've never had bolts loosen on one.
All things being equal I'd prefer a gasket to RTV. Its why I now use Lube Locker gaskets on rears ends. The issue is that all things tend not to be equal. In the end each person tends to stick with what has worked for them.
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I’ve used RTV with gaskets and w/o gaskets, never had much of an issue removing the old RTV. Yes, sometimes an ice pick, little screw driver or a wire brush is needed to get into small spaces. However, my memory goes back to my dad (like 60 years ago) using Permatex 1 &2 that one not only needed a wood chisel to remove, but it needed to be backed up with the hammer! So, when RTV came on the market, and I was racing at the time, I thought RTV was the greatest invention ... and still do.
As TKO stated: “In the end each person tends to stick with what has worked for them.”
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As for those little steel spacers in the gaskets. I know some of the guys here have dug them out of the inside of an engine. Since I use a lot of aluminum pans and valve covers, those little spacers tend to wind up stuck inside the bolt holes of the pan or valve cover rather than in the gasket where they belong. For that reason, they are worthless to me as to adding a positive spacer to the gasket.
Cleaning RTV out of timing cover / rear main seal area is super easy using a small flat blade screwdriver. Of course, this rarely occurs when I build an engine since they tend to go many years before they need to be disassembled.
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I don't think we can blame the gasket for operator error. A crush spacer becoming dislodged is likely the result of over torquing the fasteners. Fastener torque is based on the size, grade, and thread count of the fastener, and this is why factory specs should always be observed, even for something as seemingly innocuous as oil pan or valve cover bolts. I learned to torque every fastener to spec working on Diesels, even for the tins, and I've yet to have any of those fasteners come loose. If a Diesel doesn't shake them loose; a gas engine hasn't a prayer of doing it. Worst case, use blue Locktite if you are that worried about them. We did this on every fastener on our jet skis years ago and never had a single one come loose, and those things make a Diesel look like a sewing machine.
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If the spacers were larger diameter where they would actually do their job rather than fitting up inside the bolt holes, I would agree they are useful. However, they are not and are therefore worthless. They are there to support the cover or pan at the proper crush thickness for the gasket, and the fact they are too small a diameter to do that negates their usefulness.
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I've never had the issue you describe, but it may be because I'm using a different manufacturer's gaskets. I hate blue gaskets, so I typically look for ones which are black. I believe the oil pan gaskets I've been using are Milodon, not Fel-Pro.
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I’ve used the gaskets with the spacers on my Cobra valve covers and yes, I found some of these spacers pressed into the valve cover bolt holes when I removed the covers. And, I don’t believe that I over torqued the cover bolts. However, using those gaskets with a slight coating of RTV on both sides of the gasket did not produce any leaks.
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I’d use Mahle brand. In my experience the Mahle pan gaskets have Ford embossed into them. The rubber pieces for the front and rear cap are softer and better formed than Felpro in my opinion.
I about lost my mind trying to replace my timing cover on a Cleveland with Felpro pan rubber, was able to do it with a Mahle. This was without dropping the oil pan.
RTV is good too. I would say that future cleanup is future problem. With any luck these engines stay together.
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Bentworker wrote:
I’d use Mahle brand. In my experience the Mahle pan gaskets have Ford embossed into them. The rubber pieces for the front and rear cap are softer and better formed than Felpro in my opinion.
I about lost my mind trying to replace my timing cover on a Cleveland with Felpro pan rubber, was able to do it with a Mahle. This was without dropping the oil pan.
RTV is good too. I would say that future cleanup is future problem. With any luck these engines stay together.
Thanks for the Mahle info. I did not know they made them fer Fords.
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rpm wrote:
Bentworker wrote:
I’d use Mahle brand. In my experience the Mahle pan gaskets have Ford embossed into them. The rubber pieces for the front and rear cap are softer and better formed than Felpro in my opinion.
I about lost my mind trying to replace my timing cover on a Cleveland with Felpro pan rubber, was able to do it with a Mahle. This was without dropping the oil pan.
RTV is good too. I would say that future cleanup is future problem. With any luck these engines stay together.
Thanks for the Mahle info. I did not know they made them fer Fords.
Mahle makes OEM gaskets and pistons for a lot of the OEMs now. They are a German company that started making parts for BMW, etc. I first heard about them 26-27 years ago from a buddy who is into classic BMWs. In the years since they have expanded considerably, and I first used a set of their pistons over 20 years ago because they made a set for a 383 SBC stroker with a 6" rod that didn't put the pin in the oil ring groove. At the time, coated pistons and rings for about the same price as an uncoated piston set. Then I broke a couple rings using one of those stupid ratcheting piston ring compressors (last time I ever did that, tapered compressors only from then on). I called Mahle USA to buy replacements and they sent me a full set of rings for free. Those pistons also balanced without needing any heavy metal in the crank. Since then I've been a big believer in their quality.
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Mahle pistons have been around a very long time , along with Silvolite they were my go-to motorcycle pistons back in the 60’s. They made pistons for even the most obscure marques.
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Apparently they started in 1920. Pistons have always been their specialty, but they eventually expanded into oil filters and gaskets.
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