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12/26/2013 10:52 AM  #1


9 inch pinion seal replacement

Hello,

I bought a nice used 9 inch third member....3.50 and trac lok......it is leaking out of the pinion seal...I bought anew pinion seal and it seems straight forward to replace except for the fear of messing up the preload...I realize the crush sleeve is already "crushed" and have no intent to fool will it.....thus question is how tight to torque pinion nut back after seal replacement?

 

12/26/2013 11:39 AM  #2


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

I found this on a google search - there are apparently quite a few ways to do this but I suspect only a few are correct.  All this assumes that your pinion preload is correct to begin with and that your pinion bearings are good - often a seal failure/lead is the result of pinion bearing that are starting to go.  One post just said re-torque to 150 ft-lbs but this could over or under do it.  I liked this one - 


If you want to replace pinion seal w/o removing pinion gear assembly:

Verify no metal shaving in gear oil; stick finger in the oil to check.
Super fine metal shavings may be ok.

Verify rear end is quite on the road; no whining please

Verify Rear end is less than 160F-190F at full operating temperature.
My differential was running at 135F last time I checked.

Verify no up/down play in pinion.

Measure torque required to rotate pinion nut (in car) with vehicle  on jack stands,in neutral, no parking brake.

Mark pinion nut to pinion shaft to companion flange (liquid paper works).

Remove pinion nut , replace seal.

Put lock tight on pinion nut.

Tighten pinion nut 1/8 turn past original marked (indexed) position.
Must require less than 200 ft-lbs to get 1/8 turns past your index marks. Index marks are better indicator than torque, if it was installed correctly before.

Verify same torque required to turn pinion (in car ) before seal was replaced (neutral, on stands, no parking brake).

If about same torque required to rotate pinion (in car) then ping the pinion threads at pinion nut to make sure nut does not back off.

If more torque  is required to rotate pinion (in car) then pinion assembly must be removed and new crush sleeve or solid spacer installed to spec (approx 15 to 30 in-lbs).

Solid spacer recommended for very high power applications.
Crush sleeve will last many year for reasonable horse power applications.


This is the link to the site I found - a google search will also lead you to some youtube videos but I didn't watch any - http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/ford-pinion-seal-176483.html
 

 

12/26/2013 6:29 PM  #3


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

DON'T use an impact to remove or replace the driving pinion nut. (The Ford Shop Manual also warns against this). The rapid, cyclic impacts will vibrate the roller bearings on the drive pinion. This can cause brenelling (small pits) of the surfaces of the roller bearings and races. Once this occurs, the bearings and races will begin to degrade and deteriorate.

Here's how I have removed/reinstalled the yoke to replace a driving pinion seal. Take a paint pen and make a line across one half of the tip of the driving pinion (tip sticking out of the nut) and continue it over onto the nut, across one side of the nut, and over onto the yoke. In the same plane as the first paint mark, make a reference line from the circular deflector, at the base of the yoke, and onto the face of the pinion housing casting. This will give you a reference when you go to put everything back together to line everything up.

A six-point socket (1-1/16", best I remember) will be less likely to round the points off the nut than a 12-point socket. Take your socket and paint a line on the outside of  it so that the paint line on the socket lines up with the paint mark on the side of the pinion nut --when you place the socket over the nut.

I made a tool approx 18" long to hold the yoke with to keep it from turning while loosening the nut with a 1/2" drive breakover bar. Before breaking the nut loose, write on a piece of paper where the clocking of the mark is. Example, let's say the initial reference is at 11:00 o'clock. Write down 11:00.

Place the socket/breakover bar on the nut (with the mark on the socket lined up with the mark on the nut) Start breaking the nut loose while counting the revolutions of the reference mark on the socket that it takes to remove the nut. On average for me, this has been about 16-17 revolutions but, your setup may vary.

When the nut comes free, write down the number of revolutions it took and what the clock position was when you could remove the nut from the threaded pinion stem. --this will be the oriention/starting point when you go to put the nut back on.

Remove the old seal and clean out the bore where the new seal will seat into. I put a thin layer of Ultra Black on the sealing surface of the new seals metal housing, prior to driving the new seal into the bore. Take some gear oil and smear it around the rubber lip of the seal, before you put the new seal over the pinion stem.

Once the new seal is installed, slide the yoke on, index the line on the pinion nut to the position it was in when it came off (reference your notes). Begin tightening the nut while counting the revolutions required to put it back to the intial clocking position when you started.

Once there, put your hand on the yoke and make sure that you can't wiggle it up/down or side to side. You may have to go a LITTLE tigher to eliminate any possible slack but if you have to go very far beyond the original revolution number, something is not right. If the crush collar is compressed more than it was to start with, the crush collar will have to be replaced and the driving pinion depth/preload resetup. :-(

 

12/26/2013 7:29 PM  #4


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

All of the last three examples will work very well. What we did at the shop works well too. We used a thin shim on top of crush sleeve and recrushed to remove slack and impose a bearing preload. Have to sneak up on the preload....
Howard 

 

12/26/2013 8:59 PM  #5


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

My experience has been that it takes over 300 ft-lbs of torque to crush the spacer.   On my 9" rear, I removed the nut, replaced the seal and re-torqued the pinion nut to 150 ft-lbs or so.  As Ultrastang said, it's not a bad idea to mark the initial position of the nut for a sanity check.   I'd also check the pinion resistance both before and after to be sure nothing's changed.


jerry
 

12/26/2013 9:41 PM  #6


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

You may find the pinion yoke seal surface to be grooved from years of service, that will often wear the seal, and just replacing the seal may not cure the leak for very long. 

I've pretty much gone to the solid spacers instead of the crush collars, easier to set up in my opinion and reusable.  I like the above idea of adding a thin shim before you retorque/reuse the crush collar so you can possibly get the preload correct, sounds like a viable option.

 

12/27/2013 2:06 PM  #7


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

One thing I do differently is to just remove the five bolts holding the bearing retainer in the housing and pull out the entire bearing and pinion shaft/gear assembly.  This part requires no set up as the depth is not changed by doing it if you put the same number of shims back in as what came out.  It also gives opportunity to replace the large o-ring around the bearing retainer.

That gets the assembly so you can work on it on your workbench rather than laying under the car.

I clamp the companion flange in my press to hold it still while I use a large socket to remove the big nut, after carefully marking the nut, flange and shaft so it can all be reassembled exactly as it came apart. Pull off the flange (yoke) and replace the seal.  Put it back together just like it came apart, lining up all the marks, then tighten to exactly where it was before, plus about 1/16" of extra travel from the original marks.  It will work fine.

These rear ends are not rocket science, especially since most of them have 100,000 miles on them.  If it worked OK prior to removal, it will work fine afterwards.

Once the assembly is torqued down as described clean the mating surface, install a new o-ring if needed, and bolt it back in place and torque down the five bolts.  If not using a new o-ring, I usually put a small amount of RTV around the area where the old one fits.

ALSO, do not forget to grease the ID of the new seal you installed!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

12/27/2013 4:53 PM  #8


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

I would advise to not remove the driving pinion/pinion housing from the 3rd member case without first making some sort of reference mark, to get the tooth of the driving pinion to fall back into place of the same two ring gear teeth it came out from between. This may be less important with some ratios but is very important with others.

There are hunting, non-hunting, and partial non-hunting gear sets. Gear sets are lapped together as a matching set. A non-hunting gear set would also be a timed gear set. This means that certain teeth of the driving pinion and the teeth of the ring gear will always make contact through their revolutions. In a hunting gear set, the teeth of both ring and pinion would mesh in random patterns.

A timed factory set of gears will have a paint mark on one of the pinion gear teeth and on two adjacent ring gear teeth. The pinion would have been assembled with the one painted tooth on it placed between the two painted teeth of the ring gear.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/hunting-non-hunting-gear-ratio-165363.html

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1338852210/O-T+Rearend+tag

Any early Ford Mustang Shop Manual will also explain hunting, non-hunting, partial non-hunting gear sets and will show a photo of what the paint marks will look like on a non-hunting gear set.

 

12/27/2013 6:08 PM  #9


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

To determine if you have a hunting or non-hunting, you need the tooth counts - this site shows tooth counts for 9" Fords -  http://www.oldmanengineering.com/9inch.htm  

From this you can determine the unique assembly phases for the gear set - NA -  This is the product of the prime factors common to each gear.  For a 3.70 gear with 10 and 37 teeth, the prime factors are 1,2, and 5 for the the 10-tooth pinon and 1 and 37 for the ring gear,  the common factors are 1, and NA is 1.  This is a hunting gear set and can be taken apart are reassembled without any marks.  The 3.50 gear in this posting has 10 and 35 teeth - 1, 2, and 5 and 1, 5, and 7 respectively.  NA is equal to 1 x 5, or 5.  This means that if the pinon is removed, there are 5 possible ways that it can be reinstalled.  When NA is greater than 1, certain teeth on the pinion will only match with specific teeth on the ring gear.  For example, pinion tooth 1 on the pinion will mesh with tooth 1 on the ring gear and tooth 1 on the pinion will never contact tooth 2 on the ring.  The gears may or may not be lapped when manufactured but they will certainly "lap" or wear a specific pattern in service.  If you take out the pinion and install it where tooth 1 now contacts tooth 2 of the ring gear, there is a potential for noise and vibration because you have teeth in contact that have never been in contact before.  The key word is potential - not every gear will make a racket when installed improperly but the chances are pretty high that it will be noisier.  So, with the 3.50 gear, which is a partial-non-hunting set, you need to be careful.  The 3.70 doesn't care, and a gear like a 3.00 set with 13 and 39 teeth has a NA of 13!  This is a non-hunting set.

The howling frequency you will hear with improper reassembly is called the gear assembly phase frequency - at least in the rotating machinery world.  This is equal to the RPM of the driveshaft/pinion times the number of pinion teeth divided by the product of NA and 60.  This gives you the frequency in Hz.  For a 3.50 gear set in 4th gear (1:1) at 3000 RPM, the GAPF is equal to 3000x10/5x60, or 100 Hz.  A gear assembly phase error also tends to produce a lot of harmonics or multiples of the GAPF which contributes to the "harshness" of the tone.

Good design practice says that both gears should be prime numbers, next best is a NA equal to 1, and not so good is NA greater than 1.  But, you also need to get a ratio to match the job.  As long as you pay attention to assembly, you will be fine.

 

12/27/2013 8:59 PM  #10


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

What ultra and GaryP stated are the reason to be sure and mark everything and put it back together exactly as it came apart.  If the nut, shaft and flange are marked with the housing, the assembly can go back right where it came from, assuming you did not rotate the axles.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

12/30/2013 10:15 PM  #11


Re: 9 inch pinion seal replacement

A little trick I learned the hard way when installing a new pinion seal in any rear diff. assy. is to pack the spring under the lip of the pinion seal on the back side, with wheel bearing grease or chassis lube.  Sometimes with driving in the seal, the spring jumps out and it is crushed between the pinion yoke and the bearing.  You then have an instant driveline vibration.  Time to redo. Hope this saves someone some time.


"when I drop something, it always goes to center of the car"
 

Board footera


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