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I hope John doesn't think this is a criticism - it most deffinitely is not. But John appears to be on vacation for a couple of weeks and I was hoping to get some insight into my problem.
I recently finished installing the Opentracker lower control arm kit for my 65. It includes welding in a sleeve for a screw in ball joint and boxing-in the lower control arm. I supplied my own ball joints and sleeve and used Afco 20034, and sleeve 20043, which I thought were correct for his kit. My problem is that my spindle (GT w/ disc brakes) slides down really far onto the ball joint stud. So much so that the boot gets smashed and the hole in the ball joint stud is above the castellated nut. I've attched a photo. Note there is no washer under the nut, which is on finger tight. Does anyone have any insight into this?
Last edited by jkordzi (2/17/2014 8:05 PM)
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How crushed is the boot getting? Maybe the ball joint just has a longer threaded stem than original? Does the tapered part of the ball joint appear to be the same as the original?
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The boot is pretty crushed and all I did was slip it on w/out tightening the nut. I don't have the original ball joint to compare the taper to these ball joints. I guess I'll have to make a trip up to Dallas Mustang to measure the ball joint stud on one of their arms.
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Where are you located? If I am closer, I have some you could compare.
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If the ball joint you have is the Chrysler upper as the part number reflects, then what you have is pretty normal. I have done that on my 66. For mine, I need one or two thick washers between the spindle and the castle nut to raise the nut up high enough to catch the cotter key hole. It looks OK to me. If you prefer you could attempt to drill a new cotter key hole but the washers will be fine. I read a lenghty thread on another site if they need to be hardened or not. You are pulling a tapered pin into the spindle and the required torque is not going to put an extreme load on the washer. However, if your local Ace hardware is similar to mine, they have "heavy duty" grade 8 washers in one of the bins. They are considerably thicker than a standard washer and if I recall, I need two to get the castle nut aligned.
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MustangSteve wrote:
Where are you located? If I am closer, I have some you could compare.
Thanks - I'll be in downtown Dallas tomorrow so it's no problem.
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GPatrick wrote:
If the ball joint you have is the Chrysler upper as the part number reflects, then what you have is pretty normal. I have done that on my 66. For mine, I need one or two thick washers between the spindle and the castle nut to raise the nut up high enough to catch the cotter key hole. It looks OK to me. If you prefer you could attempt to drill a new cotter key hole but the washers will be fine. I read a lenghty thread on another site if they need to be hardened or not. You are pulling a tapered pin into the spindle and the required torque is not going to put an extreme load on the washer. However, if your local Ace hardware is similar to mine, they have "heavy duty" grade 8 washers in one of the bins. They are considerably thicker than a standard washer and if I recall, I need two to get the castle nut aligned.
Thanks. I guess I was expecting the taper on the Afco ball joint stud to be the same as the original ball joint but I guess it's not. Is your ball joint boot pretty crushed? I'm just wondering if that's going to be an issue in the future. If you've seen a thread somewhere that discusses this issue, would you mind point me to it? Thanks.
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I'm not home now so I can't look but I recall that the boot was crushed pretty far. A little silicone grease between the boot and the spindle won't hurt as long as you don't use too much and create a dirt magnet. I found a few links - some familiar names come up. I'll shoot you some pictures on Thursday if you still need them.
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Thanks I'd appreciate seeing your pics. So you have been driving the car w/ no problem?
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I am months/years from driving it, unfortunately, as it is still on the rotisserie. I remembered this morning another little detail. The hardened washers I bought were 1/2" which fit over the 9/16" threads. But, the bottom washer hung up on the top part of the taper that sits just above the spindle surface. If you get a small-ish washer, open it up a bit so that it fully clears the taper and allows you fully tighten the taper. It is not that the taper is too small - it is just longer - it starts at the same OD but the upper OD is smaller than stock because of the total taper length.
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Had the same issue with the CPP control arms where the Spindle was way to low on the ball joint. They have a tappered bushing that goes between the spindle and ball joint that brings it up higher. To me the boot doesn't look to bad. Do you have anymore pics of the boot below the spindle. When I went with Street or Track they have a similar Chrysler Ball Joint. Theres sat fine on the ball joint but I had a lot of thread left on top. They supplied a think spacer that goes between the Top of the spindle and Nut. That would fix your problem from what I see.
Steve69
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Her are some pics of the sleeves after I took them out because I switched suspensions. There a PIA to remove once there in. Below is a pic of the spacer that brings the nut up higher. Steve69
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Yours didn't look as bad as mine. This is why I needed the sleeves.
Steve69
Last edited by Steve69 (2/18/2014 8:28 AM)
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From what I found on-line regarding CPP, the issue was the threaded sleeve height compared to the AFCO/stock sleeve height. When the ball joint is threaded into the CPP units, it doesn't sit high enough because the theaded sleeve is too tall. There were a few heated discussions I stumbled across last night when searching for links on this subject. If you use the correct AFCO threaded sleeve, it all works well.
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Steve69 wrote:
Had the same issue with the CPP control arms where the Spindle was way to low on the ball joint. They have a tappered bushing that goes between the spindle and ball joint that brings it up higher. To me the boot doesn't look to bad. Do you have anymore pics of the boot below the spindle. When I went with Street or Track they have a similar Chrysler Ball Joint. Theres sat fine on the ball joint but I had a lot of thread left on top. They supplied a think spacer that goes between the Top of the spindle and Nut. That would fix your problem from what I see.Steve69
Thanks to everyone for all the help. Steve69 - I think I've seen the thread on another board to which you are referring. I think the boot squish I'm seeing is similar to what Shaun is showing on his pic - not as bad as the one you posted here. I'll take a sideways picture and post it this evening. Maybe I just didn't realize the nut needed to be spaced up and am just overreacting.
Last edited by jkordzi (2/18/2014 9:28 AM)
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I have a similar problem with the CPP setup. I have emailed them yesterday about the tapered bushing. Someone on another forum told me about those bushings yesterday, and also said CPP charged them 6 bucks apiece for those bushings, which I will pay if I have to but seems to me like they should be providing them free of charge to fix a problem with their product. I emailed them yesterday and got no answer, so I will call them today.
Like you, I've done a lot of googling about this problem and reading about using that Mopar ball joint, but it's very interesting reading in this thread that the problem is the threaded sleeve for the ball joint, as well as the ball joint itself. I had assumed at one point that if I couldn't get help from CPP I would try those ball joints, but now it sounds like that wouldn't address the issue anyway. I'm hopeful CPP will make this right.
In the pics below, you can see the spacer they provided me for the castle nut, which is not even quite tall enough after we torqued them down correctly. I'm very concerned about the ball joints binding as the suspension moves. The first pic was taken when the rear end was off the ground, so the suspension is compressed. The second was taken with the front off the ground, so full extension.
Bob
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Not trying to reinvent the wheel but it appears that there are some options for ball joints from Howe (available at Speedway and others). They offer the K772 style ball joint in different dimensions which may help in some installations. While roughly 3 to 5 times the AFCO or Moog price, they may help when things don't quite match up by changing the dimension between the center of the ball to the start of the taper in 0.1" increments. The standard AFCO threaded sleeve is 1" deep. If the sleeve is greater than 1", the spindle may not clear the sleeve or control arm -
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Those sleeves will bring your spindles right up Bob. Here's a pic after I intalled the sleeves. I had a problem with the Ball Joint and it took 2 months for the CPP to send me a new one during prime summer driving that my car sat. I pulled there stuff off and went another direction. I felt after I bought there stuff I was completely on my own. Then that shim thing made me mad. I wasted a lot of time screwing around with that listening to them make excuses. You know this happened to me in 2009. They've known about the problem with the spindle not fitting there ball joint properly back then. You sure would of thought they would include those sleeves with every kit they sold by 2014. Steve69
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John answered my email and confirmed that I have the right ball joint, and that it's normal to have to space up the nut a bit. So here's a sideways shot of my arm with the nut torqued down that shows the amount of squish in the ball joint boot. I'll have to add another washer under the nut to get the cotter pin hole to line up better, but after comparing it to other examples, I'm thinking I'll be OK and won't run the risk of the ball joint binding. What do folks think? Thanks.
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Steve69 wrote:
That picture looks like it would eat up that boot in about 3 nanoseconds as the suspension moves around. Does it actually work like that? Maybe this is the BEFORE picture?
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Jkordzi, I think you'll be fine. I have the same issues with the same ball joints. Big club eh? I'll either use two of the thicker "heavy" washers or machine a one piece spacer. I have no clearance issues beyond the suspension range. If it matters I have 70 spindles on a 69.
Bob
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Thanks. Just spend some time admiring your work on photobucket.
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Thank you j!
Bob
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MustangSteve wrote:
Steve69 wrote:
That picture looks like it would eat up that boot in about 3 nanoseconds as the suspension moves around. Does it actually work like that? Maybe this is the BEFORE picture?
That was the before picture after you told me theres no way in Hell you would drive it like that. I think I took that pic in 2009. Steve69
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