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I am looking into the MSD Atomic efi system. Does anyone have first hand experience with the unit?
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I was just looking at this too, doing some research into it. I don't know anyone that has one either, but I can give some relevant info on it:
1) It's a throttle-body injector setup. While that's actually good in some ways, including ease of installation, it also means your fuel distribution is only as good as your intake manifold. You get to deal with some of the carburetor issues like intake manifold puddling. Droplets of gas have longer to bang together on the bottom of the intake manifold, and make big fat drops of liquid instead of gasoline vapor. Since only the vapor burns, those large droplets will basically just go right on out your tailpipe. That will reduce economy, compared to the fuel-rail style injectors.
2) It doesn't have a mass air sensor. That means that your engine can't tell how much air it's actually using, it's just using a complicated list of numbers, and looking up how much gas to squirt based on engine RPM, throttle position, exhaust O2 sensor, and air temperature. In other words, it's "guessing" about how much fuel your engine needs. The accuracy of that guess depends a lot on what hardware you're using; cam, heads, exhaust, that sort of thing. When you first install it, you put in some basic information like "how many cubic inches" and "how many cylinders". If your engine needs more or less fuel than what the unit expects, on its little lookup tables, it will cause your engine to run poorly, and may take a lot of programming to fix.
This type of fuel injection (often referred to as speed density) gets worse mileage than a mass-air setup, because of this fact. MSD brags about it 'learning', but there is a very finite limit to how much it can adjust those data tables based on exhaust gas content, and it can often 'learn' the wrong things under certain conditions, especially if your engine exceeds what the sensors are capable of reading. When that happens, it will go back to its 'default' tables. Better to err and make the mix too rich than too lean, which burns things up.
So, bottom line: It looks like a pretty slick setup. Good looking, easy to install, better than any carb, but could be passed off as a vintage carbureted setup for those who aren't looking close. Price looked reasonable.
Cons: Worse mileage and less power than a mass-air setup, more expensive than a good carburetor.
IMHO, if you want to go EFI, the factory EEC IV unit is pretty hard to beat in terms of performance and price. The intake for the factory Ford 5.0 HO unit is awesome for making torque and good power with our smallblock Fords, and you can easily get around 22-25 mpg with one, and be perfectly streetable. The only good reason to go with the MSD unit is because you want appearance and ease of install. Bullet Bob could give you a lot better useful info on retrofitting a factory Ford unit than I could; mine is still a work in progress, even if I've put a good 20k miles on it.
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Technomancer wrote:
2) It (Atomic MSD EFI) doesn't have a mass air sensor.
You know, I was looking at all options for EFI, and just last night noticed that the Megasquirt system, even the one that is a plug\n\play for the Ford EEC IV, doesn't use the MAF meter either. Is this correct, or did I miss something?
So, are there any mass air aftermarket systems, or is sticking with the stock Ford system the better option? The reason I was looking at aftermarket is for tune-ability with modified engines. The EEC IV seems very difficult for the home tuner to mess with, whereas the aftermarket EFI setups seem much more adaptable. Also, stock Ford EFI CPUs are now getting to be upwards of 20 years old and getting older. Any insight appreciated.
John
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Technomancer wrote:
IMHO, if you want to go EFI, the factory EEC IV unit is pretty hard to beat in terms of performance and price. The intake for the factory Ford 5.0 HO unit is awesome for making torque and good power with our smallblock Fords, and you can easily get around 22-25 mpg with one, and be perfectly streetable. The only good reason to go with the MSD unit is because you want appearance and ease of install. Bullet Bob could give you a lot better useful info on retrofitting a factory Ford unit than I could; mine is still a work in progress, even if I've put a good 20k miles on it.
I was looking at the factory system. What is the maximum horsepower the factory system is rated to support?
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You could use FAST Retro kit and peice together the older style 5.0 system with Trick Flow manifolds, 24pd injectors and a 75mm Throttle body. You can buy all the pieces new and new injectors for the same price as there throttle body kit.
Last edited by Steve69 (4/22/2013 1:49 PM)
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I am pretty sure I've never seen an aftermarket system with a MAF (systems that graft in to a factory system, don't count ). Tuned right there's no need. As far as MPG of an aftermarket EFI vs. factory EFI I would wager that depending on the level of modification to the vehicle the aftermarket would win. Once you pass a few mild modifications all that factory work and calibration starts to go out the window and you'll need something to start making changes to the stock computer.
But if you're going with a stock or close to it then a Fox EFI swap would make a lot of sense in dollars, performance, and reliability.
I spent several years as an EEC-Tuner, TwEECer, and SCT dealer, many times we'd try to make the factory system work on hi HP cars. After a while you're just being stubborn trying to make the factory stuff behave. There's just as much (if not more) of a learning curve tuning the factory stuff as there is an aftermarket EFI. And it's a LOT less straightforward.
Last edited by Raymond_B (4/22/2013 2:00 PM)
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I like that the Atomic can control timing and two electric fans with independent temperature settings on each fan.
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There are a lot of people who hack at the EEC-IV injection and complain that it is not tunable past a certain point. I used to have a 93 mustang that I could drive the 100 miles to Baytown, TX and run 11.8 second passes all night, then drive back. On street tires with pump gas and no custom program.
Matching the airmeter and injectors together is vitally important if you are going to be making any serious power with the EEC computer. Once you move past 350 hp, you have to get larger injectors. Getting a larger airmeter will also help move more air. Make sure your air meter is calibrated to the size of the injectors you are using and the computer will not need to be programmed. If your meter and injectors don't match, it will either run too lean, or rich depending on which direction the calibration is off.
Do not mess with variable fuel pressure like Vortech tells you to do, and you can get a custom chip burned at a dyno if you would like, it will help, but I never could stomach the cost. A long time ago I put the cash down for a speedbrain replacement computer and while the custom programming did get me some speed, the computer would sometimes crash on me and kill the car. It was anoying during a pass on the strip, but horrible when it happened in traffic and I was already overheating... I eventually went back to the stock computer and while I lost a little speed, it served me well.
Like it has already been said, these systems are nearing 25 years old now and there is also 20 years worth of magazines and forum posts on how to make serious power with them.
BobN
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The factory fuel injected setup with MAF is probably good even past the limits of block strength - which is somewhere north of 500 horsepower, without significant mods, or an aftermarket block. You do need to match your injectors to the expected horsepower level though, and if you're over 400 horses, you'll certainly need something besides just a stock A9L computer to handle it all.
But for a mild build that's not going to be getting over 6k, the mass air unit has some great advantages over MAP sensor setups.
MAF actually measures air flow into the engine. That means that it is better able to compensate for things like altitude changes. If all you do is toot around the block once in a while, who cares - but if you take it on road trips, or live someplace where you get vertical travel, that does matter.
For maximum horsepower, having the MAF sensor in the way just means a restriction. If you're drag racing only, then there are a lot of better setups than the factory unit. But for a daily driver, the MAF sensor means you will get better mileage, probably by 1-3 mpg better. I doubt that you would notice any power difference between MAF and MAP in most real-world driving, but it could prevent a lot of issues over time by giving proper fuel curves under a broader range of conditions.
Engine management handles not just the fuel curve, but spark as well. MAF is another tool that can help you get closer to the proper settings. Spark timing can be run closer to detonation safely without danger. Fuel curves can be set that are closer to where they need to be, without worrying about running too lean. And thanks to the fact that it actually measures the air being used, when the temperature changes dramatically, or you go to a different elevation, you're not going to be pinging or having other complications that can sometimes crop up with MAP.
The factory Ford unit also uses sequential fuel injection, instead of 'batch fire' where it squirts four injectors at a time. One squirt per cylinder. That typically improves idle quality, and very low-RPM driveability. For a throttle-body injection system it makes no difference at all, but for a port injected system, it does. A lot of the aftermarket MAP setups use batch fire.
The long runners of the factory Ford manifolds are great for making a lot of low to midrange torque, which is where our street smallblocks need a shot in the arm.
So basically, for a good-mannered street motor, or highway cruiser, the factory Ford setup is pretty dang good.
For a car that "you wouldn't want to take home to meet your mother", with a big hairy cam and serious mods, intended mostly for strip use, there are better solutions.
MAP setups can be really good. And in some ways, they are simpler to set up. But the fuel mapping is only as good as the guy that sets it up. To get it dead on takes a lot of work, and lots of testing, under lots of conditions. If you later make changes to your engine, all that hard work goes right out the window. If all you care about is WOT (wide open throttle), then you don't have to worry about how it behaves in 'all conditions', and some guys don't care about weird issues with driveability on a weekend warrior. They usually don't bother to put in all the time it takes to mess with getting the fuel and spark mapped perfectly. Few people would. They just get it 'close' and err on the side of caution to ensure that it's not going to run lean, and burn valves or pistons.
So to sum up:
If you don't expect to go over about 400 horsepower, the factory injection setup works great under a lot of conditions, and will probably get good mileage, work without fuss, and offer plenty of 'go' when you mash the skinny pedal.
For full-tilt-race applications, or highly modified combinations (including stroker kits, turbos, blowers, etc.) you might find it a lot easier to go with something like Atomic or MegaSquirt.
By the way, Megasquirt has a mod that allows use of MAF sensors, for what it's worth.
The EEC IV computers are old, yes. But they are also very rugged, very simple, and they do exactly what they were supposed to do, very well. They squirt just the right amount of fuel, and then light it with a spark at just the right time. Maybe not perfectly. But for most 5.0s, it's pretty hard to do better, especially for the money.
Last edited by Technomancer (4/24/2013 4:42 AM)
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I really like the idea of the atomic system and am considering one for my 64 fairlane someday. I have owned 3 5.0 fox bodies and know the ins and outs of thier efi system as well so that is also an option. While mass air is technically more adapteable it is still "guessing" on air inlet and fuel to compensate. Plus when you change injector size and get a matching maf that is basically tricking the computer to compensate. Coupled with the archaic computer technology (I think they are like 8mb processor) the msd running speed density may be more adapteable without a maf.
Another benefit of the msd is it appears to be a returnless style, which means coming from a carb you wont have to make any modifications to your tank and fuel lines, save from adding an in line electric pump.
The 5.0 maf style could probably be done relatively cheap with used parts, but then there can be issues as well.
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