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5/20/2014 7:43 PM  #1


new vacum brake question

Hello all!
First post. Nice forum you got here!
65 coupe, 6cylinder 250ci. granada discs, 8" rear with drums

I have a question about a vacum booster/dual master cylinder i just installed to go with the Granada disc setup i bought years ago. (the car's been in the garage the whole time, I'll be asking questions about it later, I'm sure)

I bled the master in the car. Iwould have done it on the bench, but being i've never messed with boosters before, i made the mistake of filling it and trying to do it just sitting on the table. When i found out just how much pressure was going to be required to get the piston moving in and out, I decided to do it in the car. (no way to get it in the vice without seperating the booster and master.)
After installing them in the car, I set the rod to the brake pedal so it lined up without ether pushing it towards the master or pulling it towards the pedal, with the pedal fully raised.

Here's the problem. When i started up the car the first time, the brake pedal went down about 4" when the vacum canister got vacum. (i'm taking the vacum from a port under the carb adapter plate.)
I took the car around the block and the brakes seem to work great, but the pedal still moves that 4" or so before they work.

So the question is, was I supposed to adjust the linkage from the pedal to the master cylinder after the vacum was applied? Or is it normal that the pedal travels so far?

One other thing i forgot to mention. The setup came with a combination valve. The lines on it were very obtrusive, so on the advice of a mechanic, i removed it and installed a Willwood adjustable proportioning valve i had laying around. Did I really need the metering valve that was in it? He said no.
here's the setup i bought. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-66-64-65-66-FORD-MUSTANG-POWER-BRAKE-BOOSTER-/160954333777?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2579a03a51
 

Last edited by R5CYA (5/20/2014 8:03 PM)

 

5/20/2014 8:34 PM  #2


Re: new vacum brake question

Welcome to FYIFORD.  I am glad you found us.  I hope the first response to the first question you posted doesn't scare you away, but the small boosters like that just are not very good.

I hate to say it, and I am not just saying it because my power brake conversion is superior, but that booster you have is just not very good at ever giving you a proper feeling power brake setup.  Having power brakes but a pedal with a manual brake ratio just doesn't work.

The pedal should certainly not move 4" before any braking takes place.  Did it come with any instructions?

A combination valve is a good thing to have, but is not a necessity.  Do you know how to properly adjust an adjustable valve?  Your life may depend on it!  There are some web articles on how to do it if you search around. 

Last edited by MustangSteve (5/20/2014 8:42 PM)


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/20/2014 8:43 PM  #3


Re: new vacum brake question

I'm kinda stuck with it for the time being. I bought it last year, so there's no returns on this one!
The only real instructions were on bleeding the master cylinder.
I'll get the proprortining valve sorted out as soon as I can get the skinny on the pedal travel. It's not going anywhere yet. (garage queen)
Looks like I have some internet searching on adjusting power brakes to do! Thanks for the help!

     Thread Starter
 

5/20/2014 8:44 PM  #4


Re: new vacum brake question

Not sure if the booster actuator rod is adjustable but if there is a gap between the actuator rod and the master cylinder piston you can eat up a lot of brake pedal travel especially with the pedal ratio of the manual pedal.  Unbolt the master cylinder and pull it forward (hopefully you have some play in the brake lines.  Inspect the push rod and see if it is adjustable.  If it is, increase the length by 1/4" and carefully mount the master taking note of when it hits the push rod (assuming it does).  Turn the actuator in a few turns and try it again.  Your goal is to end up with a very small gap between the rod and the master cylinder.  If the push rod/pin is not ajdustable, try to measure the distance that it sticks out from the mounting surface of the master and then try to figure out where the master piston is.  This is not easy to do in the car with it plumbed.  At the opposite extreme, if the push rod is too long, the master piston will not fully retract and you have the potential of brake lock-up because the fluid is not allowed to return.  It doesn't sound like this is your issue.

 

5/20/2014 8:54 PM  #5


Re: new vacum brake question

Here is one of the biggest issues with that booster and master cylinder.  My supplier sells those, so I bought one to look it over and would never sell one for sure.  The booster output shaft is designed for a master cylinder having a 1/2" deep engagement depth.  The master cylinder (most, but maybe not all) have a 1" depth.  That said, your pedal has to move the rod 1/2"  before it even engages the master cylinder.  Since the pedal has a ratio of about 6:1, that means the foot contact plate will move 6 times that 1/2", or about 3" before anything even begins to act like brake application.

So, the very first thing to check is the mc engagement depth and the booster output shaft length.  Maybe you will be lucky and the two match up.  Just about all Ford masters ever used on Mustangs have 1" depth, measured from the mounting surface to the bottom of the hole in the master cylinder piston.
Adjusting the rod...  Once you have the booster/master cylinder interface matched up properly, you need to mate the pedal to the rod and to the booster. Simply adjust the rod so the pedal is sitting at its original height.  If it was a properly designed power brake system with a revised pedal ratio, you could set the pedal lower so the car is more comfortable to drive.  With that one, using a manual brake pedal, the travel of the pedal is the same as with manual brakes.  With a revised ratio, the pedal does not need to move as far and can be set lower to the floor, as the final stop will be about the same point.  A revised pedal ratio also gives a much firmer pedal feel.  One of the main reasons why people wind up removing that particular booster is because of a very mushy pedal feel, due to the manual brake pedal directly connected to a power booster.

Check out www.mustangsteve.com/brakes for more info.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/20/2014 9:01 PM  #6


Re: new vacum brake question

Thanks for both replies. I'll go check out what you said, GPatrick.
Thanks for the additional reading material, Steve. I'll read that before I head to the garage!

Last edited by R5CYA (5/20/2014 9:06 PM)

     Thread Starter
 

5/20/2014 9:09 PM  #7


Re: new vacum brake question

The valve that you removed was most likely a combination valve and not solely a metering valve.

Not all disc/drum combination valves have a metering valve but, if the valve included in the kit is the same one I see in many aftermarket kits, it's probably based on a GM combination brake valve. If so, that combination valve would contain 3 functions; metering, pressure differential sensing and proportioning.

The metering valve function would control the front disc brake circuit (it would also be known as a "hold off" valve). Disc brakes react instantly to the input of the brake pedal. Drums do not. The metering valve gives a slight delay to applying the front brakes to allow the rear drum wheel cylinders some time to overcome the tension of the retracting springs and begin moving the brake shoes towards contact of the inner surface of the drums.

The pressure differential valve is warning device. As long as the pressure coming out of the primary and secondary ports of the MC are equal, the pressure differential valve will remain centered. If there's a hydraulic failure in the brake circuit (the rear brakes for example), the pressure on the primary side of the pressure differential valve will be higher than on the secondary side of it. The higher hydraulic force will push the PDV over. This will close the contact of the switch in the combination valve, it will ground the switch circuit and then turn on the brake warning light on the dash (if you have a warning light).

The proportioning valve has a coil spring with a predetermined amount force on the proportional valve to hold it open so normal fluid flow and pressure is directed to the rear brakes. Under normal braking circumstances the proportional valve remains fully open. In the event of a panic stop, brake circuit pressures are very high. This above normal pressure surge overcomes the tension of the spring to compress it. This moves the proportioning valve over to partially block off the combination valve port to the rear brakes, to help reduce the chances of the rear brakes from locking up, or at least help keep them from locking up before the front brakes.

Unless you have a set of brake pressure gauges, turning the knob on a manually adjustable proportioning valve will only be a guess in what it has been set to.

 

5/20/2014 10:59 PM  #8


Re: new vacum brake question

Thanks, ultrastang. it was a combination valve, and had all the components that you stated. I didn't need the pressure switch (no light on the dash) or the proportioning valve (got one) and the mechanic said I didn't really need the metering valve either. What I was wondering was peoples opinions of running disk/drum setups without the metering valve.

I have read on the internet that without a metering valve, that if a brake line ruptured or got cut, I would lose all four brakes. Is that true? I'm kind've doubtfull. It's a dual master cyclinder, by the way. But it scared me, none the less.

Is there any real reason to set the proprtioning valve with brake pressure gauges? I haven't had the chance to do any reading on it yet and I've just done it by feel in the drag car. (four wheel drums) Turn them down till the back brakes stop locking up before the front. This is also another reason i'm wondering about that metering valve. Seems like it would be wierd doing it that way, knowing that the fronts will always apply first without one. Can i add a metering valve back in on the front brakes? Or does it have to be connected to the back brake lines as well in order to do it's job?

     Thread Starter
 

5/21/2014 7:44 AM  #9


Re: new vacum brake question

Ford did not use the metering valve.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/21/2014 9:19 AM  #10


Re: new vacum brake question

MustangSteve wrote:

Ford did not use the metering valve.

Well I certainly would never argue with them!  Thanks!
I have another question. I tried to order the pedal pin relocating kit from Steve and was told that it wouldn't work with the setup I have, as my booster adjustment shaft is not curved to hook up to the relocated pin. at this point I'm looking at two things to try, before either going back to a manual setup or trying to find a used working booster with the correct shaft at the wreckers.

One, I might possibly see about bending the shaft I have. I think this sounds much easier than it is, though. I think it would only work if I can remove the shaft from the booster first. I have no idea if it's doable though.

Two, I might try and make a limiter for the upward movement of the brake pedal, so it's lower and closer to where the brakes start to be applied. No idea if this will work either. I'll need to get someone to get someone to slowly apply the brakes for me while i feel for rod movement on the engine side of the booster. (it's still off from checking if its linkage was adjusted properly last night) I assume that it will probably move as soon as pedal pressure is applied crushing that idea.

any thoughts?
 

     Thread Starter
 

5/21/2014 2:37 PM  #11


Re: new vacum brake question

My 66 had the same feel and i finally fixed it by replacing the long brake line to the rear hose.  There was a very minor leak that did not show up when bled or left sitting. I noticed a little wetness at the fitting. Tightening did not fix it but replacing the brake line did it. The hose was new the long brake line looked ok but was not.  Just a thought.

 

5/21/2014 3:05 PM  #12


Re: new vacum brake question

MustangSteve wrote:

Ford did not use the metering valve.

...in the early Mustangs.  (I'm just finishing the rest of that sentence). 

Just as an FYI, the '73-'79 F-100-F350 Ford disc/drum combination valves did contain the metering function for the front discs as well as pressure differential sensing and proportioning functions within the stock combination valve body.
 

 

5/21/2014 4:14 PM  #13


Re: new vacum brake question

R5CYA wrote:

MustangSteve wrote:

Ford did not use the metering valve.

Well I certainly would never argue with them!  Thanks!
I have another question. I tried to order the pedal pin relocating kit from Steve and was told that it wouldn't work with the setup I have, as my booster adjustment shaft is not curved to hook up to the relocated pin. at this point I'm looking at two things to try, before either going back to a manual setup or trying to find a used working booster with the correct shaft at the wreckers.

One, I might possibly see about bending the shaft I have. I think this sounds much easier than it is, though. I think it would only work if I can remove the shaft from the booster first. I have no idea if it's doable though.

Two, I might try and make a limiter for the upward movement of the brake pedal, so it's lower and closer to where the brakes start to be applied. No idea if this will work either. I'll need to get someone to get someone to slowly apply the brakes for me while i feel for rod movement on the engine side of the booster. (it's still off from checking if its linkage was adjusted properly last night) I assume that it will probably move as soon as pedal pressure is applied crushing that idea.

any thoughts?
 

These are just my thoughts but, you may be better off just removing the booster you have, sell it and buy the Fox booster/pedal pin setup from MustangSteve.

You would have to disassemble the current booster in order to remove its input rod, as it's affixed to the center of the booster diaphragm inside. If you don't get it reassembled correctly, the booster will likely leak (vacuum).

Bending the input rod of the current booster would drop the eyelet down but, at the same time, doing that is going to make the overall input rod length shorter. This is going to pull the brake pedal even closer to the floor, when connected to the brake pedal pin.
 

 

Board footera


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