barnett468 wrote:

MarkinSC wrote:

barnett468 wrote:

that is correct however it gets the manifollf vac thru the carb also the thing on the outside of the carb that looks like a power vallve determines where the vac comes from .. itstotally fd up lol.

i don't see that power valve thing, it has dual ford 94 carbs on a fenton intake.
 

OK, YOUYR SYSTEM WILL NEVER WORK BECAUSE YOU HAVE A NON LOAD O MATIC CARB. YOU WOULD BASICALLY ONLY HAVE ADVANCE AT STEADY THROTTLE AND DECELLERATION SO IT MIGHT HAVE A BIG FLAT SPOT OFF THE LINE.
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 Does that thing need to be on both carbs or just one?  was contemplating just going back to stock intake and one carb. but the carbs aren't identical, one carb has distributor fitting the other doesn't. i have to go look and see if maybe one of those carbs has the power thing on the side.

MarkinSC wrote:

barnett468 wrote:

yeah ok lol . . in case you dont know that fine unit gets vacuum from the carb and intake manifold which is controlled by mr spark control valve . . do yourself and buy an old mallory centrifugal dist off ebay lol.

It only has 1 vacuum port.  line went to the carb.  I dont see any other vacuum ports on it.  An old mallory centrifugal distributor?  Ok I will search for that.
 

mark, this guy should have all the vintage style distributors. you want a mechanical advance style either with or without vacuum advance. the "crab" style look wicked.

http://www.lindertech.com/bhrs/index.html
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Last edited by barnett468 (9/17/2014 8:19 PM)

barnett468 wrote:

boomyal wrote:

Incorrect, barnett. Whatever the phasing of the distributor, as the vacuum or centrifugal advance actuates, the rotor will still fire in the same spot relative to the distributor cap post.

 
Actually I am correct but my post 47 was poorly written so I corrected it. Your comment suggests that you did not do a drawing to see how this works. I will [hopefully] clarify my comment further and provide a very simple test suggestion that proves it.

The rotor and ruluctor or points cam advance in unison as the mechanical advance advances, therefore no matter how much the mechanical advance advances, it fires in the same relation to the post but in a different position relative to the shaft. This agrees with half of your comment.
 
The more the advance plate containing the pick up or points is rotated in the advance direction, the sooner it fires in the rotors rotation as I previously mentioned.
 
If you simply make a fiagram as I previously mentioned it will become obvious.
 
1. clamp the distributor body in a vice.
 
2. put a mark on a reluctor tip and where the pick up sensor is. It can only fire when the reluctor and pick up marks are lined up.
 
3. put a mark on the distributor body where the rotor tip is pointing. This will represent one post on the dist cap.
 
4. if you do NOT have a flat head ford distributor, move the advance plate clockwise around 20 degrees.
 
5. you will now see that the mark on the reluctor and pick up no longer line up.
 
6. rotate the shaft clockwise until the reluctor mark lines up with the mark on the pick up.
 
7. you will now clearly see that the rotor tip and mark on the distributor no longer line up.
 
8. put a new mark on the distributor where the rotor is pointing. This is exactly where it will be firing which is obviously no longer at the post but before it.
 

Dude, just when I thought I understood it, now i'm cornfused again.  You lost me on step 6. Why do you need to rotate the shaft until the reluctor marks line up with the pick up?  I'm not sure I'm sold on step 2 part where  "it will only fire when the reluctor and pickup are lined up".   I'm wondering, if it still fires even though they are not directly lined up.

MarkinSC wrote:

barnett468 wrote:

boomyal wrote:

Incorrect, barnett. Whatever the phasing of the distributor, as the vacuum or centrifugal advance actuates, the rotor will still fire in the same spot relative to the distributor cap post.

 
Actually I am correct but my post 47 was poorly written so I corrected it. Your comment suggests that you did not do a drawing to see how this works. I will [hopefully] clarify my comment further and provide a very simple test suggestion that proves it.

The rotor and ruluctor or points cam advance in unison as the mechanical advance advances, therefore no matter how much the mechanical advance advances, it fires in the same relation to the post but in a different position relative to the shaft. This agrees with half of your comment.
 
The more the advance plate containing the pick up or points is rotated in the advance direction, the sooner it fires in the rotors rotation as I previously mentioned.
 
If you simply make a fiagram as I previously mentioned it will become obvious.
 
1. clamp the distributor body in a vice.
 
2. put a mark on a reluctor tip and where the pick up sensor is. It can only fire when the reluctor and pick up marks are lined up.
 
3. put a mark on the distributor body where the rotor tip is pointing. This will represent one post on the dist cap.
 
4. if you do NOT have a flat head ford distributor, move the advance plate clockwise around 20 degrees.
 
5. you will now see that the mark on the reluctor and pick up no longer line up.
 
6. rotate the shaft clockwise until the reluctor mark lines up with the mark on the pick up.
 
7. you will now clearly see that the rotor tip and mark on the distributor no longer line up.
 
8. put a new mark on the distributor where the rotor is pointing. This is exactly where it will be firing which is obviously no longer at the post but before it.
 

Dude, just when I thought I understood it, now i'm cornfused again.  You lost me on step 6. Why do you need to rotate the shaft until the reluctor marks line up with the pick up?  I'm not sure I'm sold on step 2 part where  "it will only fire when the reluctor and pickup are lined up".   I'm wondering, if it still fires even though they are not directly lined up.

if you read my post again you should understand number 6. this is just a test to show how it works.

for step 2, the reluctor and pick up are similar to two pieces of wire. just stick a chord in your wall socket and cut and strip both ends. grab one end then move your hand closer and closer to the other end until you eventually grab the other end. you will most likely see that you felt nothing until you actually touched both ends of the wire. this may help you to remenber sort of how a reluctor AND points work.

the reluctor and pick up cannot make a "connection" until they are lined up. the actual contact in the pick up is only around .020" thick/wide in many cases, and until that reluctor tip gets almost right on next to it, will not make a "connection" and therefore will not fire.

it does not have a long spark that can jump great distances like the rotor can because the reluctor or points only see around 14 volts at most but the rotor sees around two zillion, lol.
.

Last edited by barnett468 (9/17/2014 9:31 PM)

You cannot rotate the distributor to alter phasing. This just affects timing. You could, theoretically, rotate the cap in relation to the distributor body but this does not work because of the fixed mounting points of the cap.

boomyal wrote:

You cannot rotate the distributor to alter phasing. This just affects timing. You could, theoretically, rotate the cap in relation to the distributor body but this does not work because of the fixed mounting points of the cap.

Boomyal, i agree that the cap is fixed on the distributor body by the retaining clips.  I thought you said that  "Phasing" is the rotors position in relation to the cap pole when its ready to fire? So if I rotate the distributor housing, and the shaft with the rotor is independent of the distributor body and only moves with the camshaft, then rotating the body does NOT move the shaft with the rotor. So that woud affect phasing!  When my engine is off, and I turn the distributor housing in either direction a few degrees, the rotor stays locked in place. It only turns with the camshaft.

By the way, gentlemen, I am not trying to get you both in an arguement, and pit you both against each other, and before this gets heated, I want to get our tempers and egoes in check here. I'm not a master mechanic, just someone who thought he had a basic working knowledge of engine principles, who thinks there is a new concept to be learned here, and just trying to understand it.  But its difficult when there are 3 or more people trying to explain "phasing" and "timing", and you all disagree on who really understands it enough to explain it.  I think the we all are smart enough, and probably old enough, to talk it out, and work it out, and eventually agree on how this all works, and finally understand it. I don't have a problem with saying "I don't understand something", or have  problem with saying " I am wrong, sorry".   I t hink we need to start with what we all agree on with regards to basic distributor principles, and then "advance" to the next level where we disagree, and then adjust our "timing" to get ourselves in synch.    

It is true that when you remove the cap and mark the positition of the rotor tip on the rim of the distributor body, then rotate the distributor, as the distributor moves,, the rotor tip stays put, seemingly altering the relationship of the rotor tip to any given cap lug.  But alas, here is the trap.  Even though the rotor stayed put, when it is in motion, its firing point will have moved as far as you rotated the distributor.

Maybe later today, I will once again visit this subject with a live demonstration to myself.  I have developed a vertical crack in my current cap and will be changing it out.  It would only take me a few extra minutes to insert my 'holed' cap and fire up the engine and get out the timing gun. Maybe I can do a video of it.

bulletbirdman wrote:

Let me be the umpteen person to say  "lets see if I have this right", simply put timing is when it fires. And phasing is where it fires thats simple enough, I've  never heard this reffered to by the term phasing but sounds simlar to dwell angle. Am i close or should I just shut up?

hey no prob i like this thread and think its great when people seem to really want to understand something. this is websters definition . . .    the relationship of the timing between two or more events or the adjustment of that timing. . . now . that may or may not help.  if you watch the mallory video that someone posted earlier in the thread it might help some .  .  the point at which the spark fires in relation to the piston position and to the position of the rotor in relation to  the position of the cap post is phasing . . changing ignition timing is changing the phasing of an event . . you timed your engine or you phased ignition timing . it is the same thing .m . . imo in this instance the word phasing  can also be substituted with clocking . timing .or  positioning . . ok is that all clear as mud now lol. . . did br

Last edited by barnett468 (9/18/2014 4:02 PM)

boomyal wrote:

Bingo bbm, you are on the right track.  As I said, one is dealing with two different planes,  I still think that barnett has not 'gotten it'.  He still equates timing adjustment with rotor phasing.

"plane" is not the correct word to use, perhaps "functions" or "aspects" would be better, and for the second time, as i memtioned in a previous post, I had "got it" around 42 years ago but you still don't understand that the more the vacuum advances the pick up or points, the sooner the spark will fire in the rotors rotation. I even posted a simple test that will show this to anyone that cares to visually see how it works.

Even the op did a test with holes in his distributor and vacuum advacne connected and engine running, and to my understanding, implied that he saw this exact thing happen when he used a timing .lite on the dist cap and increased the engine rpm. He even said he considered posting a short video so that everyone, which includes yourself, could see this for themselves if they wanted to.

As you said, you still have a dist cap with holes in it, so for you to continue saying I am wrong when you have not done the test I suggested or the one the op did, is simply illogical. and your commemts stating thay this does NOT occur are simply confusing people because they contradict the facts.

Since you have two easy ways to show yourself what I am saying, I don't understand why you keep saying I'm wrong and that I don't "get it" instead of simply doing either of them.
.
As I also previously mentioned, if one does the timing lite test and they do not see this ocur, it is simply because for some reason, their vacuum advance is not advancing the timing plate under the test conditions. It's that simple, there is no other option.

I am also not going to debate Websters Dictionary's definition of "phasing" with them or anyone else. I am simply gpoing to accept their definition of it.
.

Last edited by barnett468 (9/18/2014 8:37 PM)

barnett468 wrote:

wsinsle wrote:

barnett468 wrote:

.

Diagram and description 1 are both correct.

Diagram 2 – Rotating the cap only will only move the red line. The other lines stay the same as diagram 1. It will fire out of time unless you reposition your plug wires 90 degrees also.

Diagram 3 - The red and blue line WILL align if you rotate the cap by itself 90 degrees counterclockwise or 270 degrees clockwise.

If you rotate the entire distributor housing until the red line lines up with the yellw rotor, the blue line will then be 90 degrees off because the red and blue line move together when rotating the distributor.
.

.

     I apologize for my terminology but that is why I draw pictures. Sometimes I don’t splain myself well Lucie. Anyhow, when I said turn the rotor, I figure the rotor is connected to the base. So when you turn the rotor, you turn the base, which also turns the base the points are connected to. Therefore turning the rotor and points at the same time means they will never align. Am I thinking correct here or am I way off?
 

I like pictures too, they are a great learning tool.

I just didn't want to assume that you meant turning the body as well as the distributor so I simply answered your question exactly how it was posted, no prob.

So...now turning both the housing and everything attached to it.

DIAGRAM 1 - 0k, i understand and that is correct.

DIAGRAM 2 - Yes it will change the fire time 90 degrees but it will NOT change the rotor position, so as I mevntioned previously, it will fire 90 degtrees out of time in relationship to the cylinders.

DIAGRAM 3 - Presuming the red line is number one cylinder for example, and it needs to fire on the red line to run properly, if you move the pick up or points, you are correct in stating that it will no longer fire on the red line. This is EXACTLY what happens when the distributor vacuum can moves the position of the pick up or rotor which is what boomyal continues to say does NOT happen. You showed yourself EXACTLY how it works with your diagrams. This is exactly why I suggested drawing diagrams. Xlnt job!
.

So Walt,  in Diagram 2,  that yellow rotor should still be pointing downward at the 6 o clock position, the same direction its pointing in Diagram 1.  Because turning the distributor body /cap does not turn the rotor.  

Walt that diagram 3 seems to stress the scenario of making sure that the rotor is pointing to the #1 cylinder, when its at tdc of power stroke  when first stabbing the distributor in the block.  If you don't line up the rotor with the cap when stabbing it, then it  could look like diagram 3.  .As has been pointed out to me earlier,  it is possible to keep rotating the distributor until the cap pole of the #1 cylinder eventually hovers over the rotor,  but then again, the timing marks on the crank pulley would not be accurate to determine timing. 

 

Fellers, I believe you're overthinking this. Here's my opinion on it. The distributor rotor  location is DIRECTLY relatated to the camshaft.This 'phasing' can ONLY be changed by pulling the distributor and resetting it at a different location on the camshaft. As there are more than eight teeth on the distributor shaft, it's possible to stab the distributor in a place that's away from the distributor's sweet spot, relevent to the cap. Changing timing has NO effect on this 'sweet spot' relationship. The rotor MUST align with the distributor cap (sweet spot) when engine is at top dead center.

Last edited by ChrisH IA (9/19/2014 5:51 AM)

A "wide gap' is relative.  .060 is a wide gap in ignition/sparkplug speak.  There is only about an inch between cylinder posts on small distributor caps.  If the rotor tip is 1/4" past the post it should fire to (.250) then the spark begins to wonder what post to fire to and the charge going down the right plug wire is weakened. In seeking a proper path, the spark may even try to spark to the side wall of the cap.

As ChrisH IA states, the rotor tip position is directly related to the camshaft. This is true in a certain sense but it is no assurance that the rotor tip is pointing to the cap terminal it wants to ideally fire to. It has nothing, whatsover, to do with which cam gear tooth or distributor gear tooth you are enmeshed with.