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5/01/2015 6:20 AM  #1


351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Hi its me again....I didnt drive my 69 fastback much last season (maybe 15 times) due to the unbarrable exhaust smell I have written here before.  Well for that reason and work load and renovations, but I couldnt bare it anymore.  It was Giving me Headaches.

I spoke with a random Carb Rebuilder and former race builder and He immediately said "Lower your Power Valve, without knowing vacuum, cam specs, or any other true details"  he said most often it engages too early.  SO I went and bought a 4.5 but when I took it apart there was already a 4.5

Im here WANTING/NEEDING some of your insight and expertise. 
2 seasons ago I experimented with JETS, consulting my race mechanic cousin.  We landed on 76 Primaries and 80 Secondaries; I moved the 76's to the secondary and put 71's as the primary.  Car had a noticeable decrease in smell, but also a noticeable decrease in Power. 
I was concerned which made gotm e thinking.......Timing?  so I advanced it, BAM power back, a little less but at least it was head snapping again.

Unfortunately Ive misplaced my Cam Specs, but I know that its Mild-aggressive.  Im remembering 490's maybe 500 lift area.  Mild Lop.  Bored 40 over, Edel RPM heads and Edel Performer Intake with a 750 Double Pumper.

Any other ideas on how to make this car not make my skin, hair, clothes smell for hours on end or at least until you shower.  It is better, but not good, am I on the right track.
(side not for fun I first attemped 66's on the primaries, just to see how much I can push it.  Very Rough Idle.  My question is should I keep dropping as low as I can until it runs rough again, then step it up to the highest smooth idling jet?)

 

5/01/2015 9:29 AM  #2


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

No expert here but I wonder how the plugs look?

 

5/01/2015 9:55 AM  #3


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

That's a good place to start, are your plugs wet? Knowing nothing except what you've posted about your combo I'd start there. Because of the mods you've listed I'm gonna assume your running an electronic ignition. Did you use the "stock" wire to hook up the coil feed? If yes you are loosing spark energy, check the voltage at the coil, should be 12v+.

Next have you checked the fuel pressure at the carb? What is it?

Finally, I will most likely get some disagreement with this, IMO, your carb is too big for a mild-moderate 351w. Will a 750cfm give you better "PEEK" numbers than a 650cfm, absolutely yes, but at what expense? If we are talking about a track car by all means go big, but for a street car bigger is rarely better. Know anyone with a smaller carb that you can try?

Post more about your combo, who made your cam? Off the shelf or custom grind? Ignition system? Exactly what carb are you running? Holley, quick fuel? Auto, or manual, if auto are you running a stock or hight stall? The more in depth information will make it easier to help you.

Randy.

Last edited by Rsmach1 (5/01/2015 10:08 AM)

 

5/01/2015 12:08 PM  #4


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Refresh me................what type of carb
                                    Is the exhaust running to the rear valance
                                    Have you modified your timing curve....... All in by 36*.....cammed up engines like A LOT of initial timing...Mine is like 20* initial + 16* mechanical advance.  Really cleans up the  low end torque also. Rev's very quickly.
                                    Don't forget...these old carbed engines  smell even when adjusted right compared to the modern closed  fuel system and fuel injection. Gotta be willing to put up with a little smell. Your sounds way rich though.
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

5/01/2015 12:23 PM  #5


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

In addition to working on the carb &/or timing items, you may want to check some other items.  At the encouragement from some folks here, I replaced the trunk seal on my 65 and it made a WORLD of difference in the amount of exhaust that seemed to be entering my car.  There may be other openings around the trunk or floors that are allowing fumes to enter the passenger compartment.  Seal 'em up.

 

5/01/2015 12:45 PM  #6


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Ok I should have Given more details but I thought I would focus on the Carb seeing as I have made some changes with positive results.  Last Year one individual on here told me to look at the Secondary Idle screw only accessible from the bottom of the Carb.  Let me tell you it made a VERY noticeable difference while sitting, idling  dropped the smell by about 40-50% (keep in mind just idling).

NOW, the car. 
-Engine was rebuilt 3 Summers ago (this being the 4th now and i have maybe put on 15000km) and blue printed by a local machine shop who built race engines and anything else for over 30yrs.
-Everything is new.  New Plugs, MSD Ignition right through and it is a Manual yes.  T5 Heavy Duty.
-exhaust exits 7-8" past the Valence in an attempt to resolve this.  it is a Fastback and I have tried building up the trunk seal with extra stick on foam strip seal sold in stores.
-Cam Shaft is a Comp Cam Roller....
-my plugs are never saturated, although do show signs of Rich conditions, but not covered in it.
-All I know about the Carb is its a 750 double pumper with a 4.5 power valve and 71/76 Jets.

NEW INFO I FORGOT TO MENTION---------When Adjusting the Mixture Screws; If I screw in either side one at a time ALL THE WAY IN, the Idle Smoothens as if there is no CAM.  but if One is in, before the second can Seat, it does roughen the Idle, Yet does not make it stall (unless I lower the idle screw).   Im not an expert either but I thought either side when screwed in too far would cause a rough idle with probable Stalling.

I feel 750 is too large but everyone and their mother says no.

thank everyone who takes the time to try and help, I truly appreciate it
 

     Thread Starter
 

5/01/2015 12:46 PM  #7


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Oh, sorry, one last thing, WOT causes the most horrendous smell conditions.  half throttle or stronger accelerations are not pleasant also, but the worst is def wot.

     Thread Starter
 

5/01/2015 1:57 PM  #8


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Specifics help alot, when you turn the idle mixture screws all  the way in on either side your engine idle shouldn't smooth out. It should kill or almost kill the engine. You have a vacuum leak somewhere, need to find and fix that before anything.

Last edited by Rsmach1 (5/01/2015 2:00 PM)

 

5/01/2015 2:17 PM  #9


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Sorry had call, continued, check all your vacuum lines and all the fittings 1st. You can spray carb cleaner around the base of your carb and listen for a change in idle, along with around the intake. Find it and then you will have to go back to tuning, as once you fix it all the tuning done so far will be off.

 

5/01/2015 3:12 PM  #10


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

About that power valve...  A 4.5 opens whenever the vacuum signal drops DOWN to 4.5".  A 6.5 has to drop down two more points to 6.5.  So, your 4.5 opens (and stays open) a whole lot easier than a 6.5 would.  When the carb guy told you to install a different power valve, he was saying install one that too more vacuum to open.

I would start with that.

Your jets seem extremely large for a 351W.  I used to run 68 and 72 in my Holley 670 on my 351W.

You might also want to look at the timing in your distributor.  Not talking about static timing, but rather the total amount you get when it is fully advalced.  Backing off the advance will help with the unburned gas at idle, but if your distributor is only capable of 20 degrees advance and you are running 16 static to get 36 total, you may want to change to something different, like 8 static and 28 in the distributor.  (Example numbers, not necessarily exactly what you want.  If you have installed an afermarket distributor, they come with worst case, worse performance advance curve so it doesn't ping so bad when you first install it.  Especially MSD.  They even tell you that in the instructions.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/01/2015 3:26 PM  #11


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

I'd run a vacuum gauge at idle and then thru the gears to see what you get. Maybe have a friend help with that so you can keep all eyes on the road. Use that info for your power valve choice.

I remember a long while back always adjusting the mixture screws to get the highest vacuum reading possible.

Are the plugs black, tan, white?

 

5/01/2015 3:32 PM  #12


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Sorry Steve, A 4.5 will stay closed longer - 6.5 is not less vacuum, it is more.  The 4.5 is the closing vac. signal in inches, not opening.  Therefore, with a lopey cam where you have low vac at idle, you go with a lower power valve number to keep the fuel enrichment circuit closed.  The vacuum gauge may appear to be constant but it does not respond quickly enough to show the dynamic vaccum level which will vary up and down.  The rule of thumb is to measure your idle vacuum (with the engine timed and tuned properly) and then select a valve that is approximatey 1/2 of the idle vac.  On my 428 Cobra, at idle I had 7" of vacuum (too big of cam but it sounded great).  The 6.5 would pop open from time to time at idle and had a rich bog so I dropped to 3.5 and it worked great.  This also affects the idle transition and when you give the car gas from a cruzing speed.  When you hit the gas, if the valve is too high for the system it will go rich too quickly and bog (rich rather than lean bog).  When the PV is correct, it will open when it hits a lower vacuum level right when it needs it.  For drag racing, some will actually plug the PV circuit and do all tuning off the mains.  This is bad for street driving as you will end up with a significant lean condition while accelerating.  Great for WOT, though.

For the original poster - seat of the pants tuning never works.  You need to give us numbers - what is the vacuum level at idle?  What is your base timing and total mechanical advance and are you running vac. advance?  You are throwing jets at it and setting the timing by turning without knowing what you are adjusting.  A 750 DP will work but does it have four corner idle screws?  Do you really have a vac.750 instead - give us a list or model number number for the carb?  Also, no tuning can take place if the float levels are not set correctly.  Too high and it will run rich no matter what you do and too low and you end up with settings that can cause lean or rich conditions depending on what you are doing with the throttle.  With a bigger carb on a 351 you will run heavily in the transition slot region which means that if your idle is not set properly or if the throttle blades are not positioned properly in the transition slots (about .040" exposed at the bottom) you will never get the jetting right and it will probably run rich and smelly.

Drop back, take some vacuum and real timing readings, and get your idle sorted out.  As suggested above it sure sounds like you have a vacuum leak so check your carb base gasket, PCV valve, etc.  Once yuo have a baseline you can start to make changes but only change one thing at a time.

 

5/01/2015 3:36 PM  #13


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

MustangSteve wrote:

About that power valve...  A 4.5 opens whenever the vacuum signal drops DOWN to 4.5".  A 6.5 has to drop down two more points to 6.5.  So, your 4.5 opens (and stays open) a whole lot easier than a 6.5 would.  When the carb guy told you to install a different power valve, he was saying install one that too more vacuum to open.
.

Sorry Steve, you have it backwards. It's quicker to get to 6.5 inches of vacuum than 4.5.

I type reallllllllll sllllllllow. Not trying to pile on. Didn't see the other post until I had hit submit.
 

Last edited by at (5/01/2015 3:39 PM)


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't get him drunk
 

5/01/2015 3:49 PM  #14


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

M1Mustang69
I went back and read some of your previous posts on the "tip in hesitation" and the 1000's spent exhaust fumes...."   I agree with others for the exhaust is drafting into the car with the windows down. Has the gas tank been out of the car? Was strip caulk used to reinstall? I have never thought of the expansion foam or the sticky back foam as a barrier to fumes. It should make a good insulator for heat/cold though. 

Has the distributor been recurved like others have suggested?

How does the engine rev from an idle when you pull the throttle wide open? Does it immediately rev, momentary hesitation, cough and sputter (big hesitation), then rev? Changing the size of the squirter could help with some of this.

Have you done any reading on tuning the carb with an O2 sensor? It appears to help with part throttle driving.  

Where are you located, I saw one reference to kilometers. Not many folks in the states make that reference.

Lastly, what type of fuel have you been running? Around here, we get 87, 89, and 92 or 93 octane with a percentage of ethanol.

Good luck.
 


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

5/01/2015 4:23 PM  #15


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

And the memory begins to   s-l-o-w-l-y    f--a--d--e     a---w---a---y---
Thanks for setting me straight.  I was thinking of a pure idle condition, but it is the acceleration where the valve is supposed to do the job.
Where's barnett when you need him...


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/01/2015 5:46 PM  #16


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

MustangSteve wrote:

And the memory begins to   s-l-o-w-l-y    f--a--d--e     a---w---a---y---
Thanks for setting me straight.  I was thinking of a pure idle condition, but it is the acceleration where the valve is supposed to do the job.
Where's barnett when you need him...


(Pinto!)
 

5/01/2015 8:08 PM  #17


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Here's good reference on selecting power valves:  http://forums.holley.com/entry.php?430-Holley-Power-Valve-Tuning

The power valve is supposed to introduce more fuel during low vacuum conditions, which happens under WOT.  As the article above mentions, if you can screw in the idle screws all the way and the engine still runs, it's an indicator the power valve is blown.  But I think that assumes you don't have a vacuum leak, whcih you can check w/ a spray bottle of water.

Also as others have stated, if your mixture is too rich, you should see that in your plugs. 


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

5/03/2015 8:17 PM  #18


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

As other posts have requested, in providing numbers, include idle RPM.
The 750 DP is probably too big, and the 76/80 jets also seem very big.
I'm running a 351W with 650 Holley DP, 66/76 jets, and Edelbrock heads, manifold and flat tappet hydrailic cam and had (have) trouble with a rich idle.
Followed MS's advice and adjusted the secondary idle screw, would up with a 1/2 turn open from the factory setting.  The primary idle screws are 1.5 turns off closed, and now make a difference in the idle adjustment.  Idle RPM is now about 850, before was about 1100.
It still runs a little rich, and I need to do some more adjusting, but is much better.
Hope this helps.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

5/04/2015 9:31 PM  #19


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Alright Everyone, Seriously thank you so much for all the feedback....I am slowly working on gaining all this info....I recently got my hands on a Vacuum Gage and just changed my jets from 71/76 to 70/74........It runs well and DEF a noticeable drop in Stench each time, esp from the original 76/80......

BOBe - I tried 66 primaries initially and it ran rough, like it was starving....but now that im thinking about it, I fooleshly may have forgot to put back on a plug wire that i have to remove to create room so the front bowel can be taken off.....I will try the 66's again to verify....

I havent found the Vacuum leak yet folks, I tried using a propane torch tank around the carb and riser bases, but no change......Would the Idle Smoothening out and rising when a Mixture screw is seated in be evidence of a blown Power Valve???? or does that show a different symptom....


I will hopefully be able to get vacuum and timing Readings tomorrow.....Please be patient with me and keep an eye out for this thread folks.....

regards,
Jeff

     Thread Starter
 

5/05/2015 4:37 AM  #20


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

You don't have a vacuum leak.  By turning the mixture screws in your cuting fuel to the idle port, if it doesn't stall it's getting fuel else where.  Could be leaking power valve, too high a float etc, but more likely your exposing too much of the transfer slot by trying to raise the idle speed.
Pull the carb and adjust both throttle plates so the transfer slots are square (about 0.020"" .mark the postion of the speed screws then see if if you can adjust the mixture screws. If the speed needs to be adjusted  try not to move ithem more than a 1/4 turn.

 

5/05/2015 5:04 AM  #21


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Check your fire wall also and make sure all the holes are sealed up.   I have a 69 Mustang and I dont have a Heater.  I get some engine smell through the open hole at the top of vent area.  Once I sealed that off the fumes stayed outside.  I also took some foam sealer and filled up all the hole in the bottom of the car and trimed it when dry and painted it black. If your engine is running good and pulling nicely I doubt its your carburetor.   Steve69

 

5/05/2015 5:49 AM  #22


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Grabber Blu wrote:

You don't have a vacuum leak.  By turning the mixture screws in your cuting fuel to the idle port, if it doesn't stall it's getting fuel else where.  Could be leaking power valve, too high a float etc, but more likely your exposing too much of the transfer slot by trying to raise the idle speed.
Pull the carb and adjust both throttle plates so the transfer slots are square (about 0.020"" .mark the postion of the speed screws then see if if you can adjust the mixture screws. If the speed needs to be adjusted  try not to move ithem more than a 1/4 turn.

 
Hey thank you so much for the new info!  The only thing is although I'm say and can learn pretty much anything, I'm still a little green with the carburetors. Unfortunately I'm not following exactly what you meant with some of the terminology. Is " transfer slot" and "adjusting the throttle plates till the transfer slot is square".   
Are speed screws the idle screws?  I'm going to Google these things to try and learn them, do you know of a good source?  Lastly, when I cracked open the metering valve I tested the power valve by sucking on the one side, when the spring side moved and seated I assumed it was fine. Am I cometely wrong for this?

Cheers,
Jeff

     Thread Starter
 

5/05/2015 6:16 AM  #23


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

Search for Holley transfer slots on you tube.

 

5/05/2015 6:23 AM  #24


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

M1Mustang69 wrote:

Grabber Blu wrote:

You don't have a vacuum leak.  By turning the mixture screws in your cuting fuel to the idle port, if it doesn't stall it's getting fuel else where.  Could be leaking power valve, too high a float etc, but more likely your exposing too much of the transfer slot by trying to raise the idle speed.
Pull the carb and adjust both throttle plates so the transfer slots are square (about 0.020"" .mark the postion of the speed screws then see if if you can adjust the mixture screws. If the speed needs to be adjusted  try not to move ithem more than a 1/4 turn.

 
Hey thank you so much for the new info! The only thing is although I'm say and can learn pretty much anything, I'm still a little green with the carburetors. Unfortunately I'm not following exactly what you meant with some of the terminology. Is " transfer slot" and "adjusting the throttle plates till the transfer slot is square".
Are speed screws the idle screws? I'm going to Google these things to try and learn them, do you know of a good source? Lastly, when I cracked open the metering valve I tested the power valve by sucking on the one side, when the spring side moved and seated I assumed it was fine. Am I cometely wrong for this?

Cheers,
Jeff

The speed screws adjust the position of the throttle plates, idle adjustment controls tha amount of fuel coming out of the small round hole below the tranfer slot
 

 

5/05/2015 7:01 AM  #25


Re: 351W Modified HORRIBLY UNBARRABLE EXHAUST SMELL (the combustion)

To see the transfer slots, with engine off, use a flashlight and look into the primary bores at the throttle blades.  There is a vertical slot in the side of the venturi right above and below the throttle blades.  If you have the idle speed screw set too high, the slot gets more exposed below the throttle blades than it is supposed to have and it makes the carb run really rich. 

To fix it, remove the carb and drain the gas from it.  Turn the carb upside down.  Be careful because the accelerator pump might still have some gas in it.  If you work the throttle it will squirt gas at you out the bottom of the carb.  I find it good practice while draiing the carb to hold it in upright position and work the throttle until the accelerator pump is empty, just for safety.

.Look at the amount of the transfer slot that is exposed below the blades.  Be sure the carb is off the choke cam which would artificially open the blades further. At the base idle position, you should only see the slot exposed enough where it looks like a square under the blades, rather than an elongated slot.  If more than that is exposed, you need to set the secondary idle speed higher so the primary idle speed can be set lower. 

To set the secondary idle speed higher, there is a screw only accessed from the bottom of the carb that will set the secondary speed.  Open it at 1/4 to 1/2 turn increments, or just use some deductive reasoning to figure out about how much it took to close the primaries to get the slot the right size, and then open the secondaries by about that same amount.  It is a trial and error thing.  Set it, bolt it on and try it.  Like Grabber Blu said, you do not want to have to increase the curb idle speed setting too much or more of the slot will be exposed.  Doing this will improve driveability and reduce the rich smell.

It is possible to remove the secondary idle speed screw and replace it, screwing it in from the top so you have screwdriver access to it from the top without having to remove the carb.  I guess Holley did not want "average Joe" tinkering with it.

Now, something else that requires attention after doing this is the linkage on the side of the carb that connects the primaries to the secondaries.  Part of the function of that link (actually the only function on a vacuum secondary carb) is to hold the secondaries positively shut to their set idle speed when the carb is at idle.  It should put very slight closing pressure on the secondaries when the carb is at idle.  You adjust it by bending it.  If you go too far, it will hold the primaries open and increase idle speed. You do not want that.  Adjust it so it just barely holds the secondaries closed at idle.  Every time you make a significant change in curb idle speed, you must check that linkage to be sure it is doing its job.  Failure to do so can result in the secondaries being able to open a little bit and mess with your idle speed consistency.

Idle mixture screws...  Start out with the screws all the way in, then backed out 1-1/2 turns.  The carb should run in that position.  With the transfer slot set up properly, the idle mixture screws will actually have some real effect on the way the carb idles.

You may be surprised with these changes that the power valve can be leaned out to the factory 6.5 setting which works for 90% of all cases.  That will also help reduce the smell.  Of course, be sure the float levels are set correctly before doing any tuning on the carb.

With my 351W in my car in years past, I had a idle smell on my car that was unacceptable.  Changing the carb as discussed and setting the timing so it was not so far advanced at idle helped all but eliminate it.

What really helped the most was removing the Holley and installing a Quick Fuel carb.  It is basically a Holley with some improvements that make it easier to tune.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

Board footera


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