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9/07/2015 3:14 PM  #1


Brake Conundrum

I have a braking problem and here's the back-story. "66 fastbacj started with disc/drum  setup; changed to 12" discs up front and 10.5" in the rear with new disc/disc MC that has a 1" bore. Braking performance was awful. Just had the system re-bled from stem to stern and no change. People I talk with suggest going to a 1.125" bore MC and as I cannot figure out where the problem lies, I put it out there to the MS board. Would love to get this resolved as I cannot do open track days with the car in its present state and it doesn't inspire confidence on the street. Thanks in advance. Frank

 

9/07/2015 4:40 PM  #2


Re: Brake Conundrum

Can you give us some more info. There can be several definitions of awful braking.  Manual or power brakes?  Is the pedal mushy?  Is braking strength low?  Does the pedal depress too far?  etc.

Gioing to a 1.125 MC will vastly increase the foot power needed to stop you car and reduce the pedal travel.  Particularly if you have manual brakes.  a 15/16" MC will increase braking power at the expense of added pedal travel. 

Even so, you could still have air in the system, which can be a bear to eliminate.


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

9/07/2015 4:41 PM  #3


Re: Brake Conundrum

Manual or power?  If power, what system are you using?  And if power what size/type booster are you running and does the system have a revised pedal ratio?  If you are running manual brakes with a stock ratio pedal, going to 1.25" will take you in the opposite direction if your braking is already inadequate (pedal effort increases with diameter).  From other posts, 15/16" may work better but this is a general recommendation that can't properly be answered until you provide full brake system details.  Also describe what type of distribution block/valve you are using and verify that you have the front and rear brakes properly plumbed to the correct positions on the master.

 

9/07/2015 4:50 PM  #4


Re: Brake Conundrum

First, thanks for your questions. The system is manual, no booster. I am using the standard Ford junction block and I do have a proprtioning valve on the Trans tunnel. As to brake pedal feel and depth of push to get adequate sopping, the pedal does NOT feel mushy but you have to push the pedal  a good ways to get serious braking. It is next to impossible to get the wheels to lock up in a panic stop. If a picture woud help, I would be happy to post one of the junction block relative to the MC. Frank

     Thread Starter
 

9/07/2015 5:24 PM  #5


Re: Brake Conundrum

You have two opposite conditions - 1-1/4" will reduce brake travel but you would have to stand on it to stop and 15/16 will reduce brake effort but extend travel so there may be multiple problems.  Some pictures will help.  Are you using a dual reservoir master?  What front calipers are you using?  If using late 60's Mustang or Granada see the MustangSteve web site for the Granada conversion to ensure that you do not have the front calipers on the wrong side.  That usually causes a mushy feel but can also increase brake pedal travel as well.  What rear discs are you using and have they been properly set?  Some require multiple applications of the e-brake to get the pads properly positioned and reduce travel.  More details on all components front and back - including brackets, calipers, rotors, etc. are really needed.  Could be a mis-match of parts.  The stock distribution block on a 66 is not ideal for a dual master.  I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions here but the more details you provide, the better the responses.  Please also describe the specific master you are using, whether the pedal actuation pin is in the stock location and what M/C push rod you are using - straight, curved, etc.

 

9/07/2015 6:14 PM  #6


Re: Brake Conundrum

GPatrick - Here's the info on parts: Front rotors and calipers are the T/A 12" package fro Shaun at Street or Track using the larger Ford using the larger spindles. The calipers are KH '67 Thunderbid style (see Street or Track website). The rears are SSBC 10.5" with their rotors and calipers. The MC is a dual reservoir Master Power MC. If the standard distribution block is a problem, what is the best solution? The pushrod is a straigh, non-adjustable pushrod (do I need a longer one? If so how much?) I'll try to post a picture later. Thanks for your help

     Thread Starter
 

9/07/2015 6:24 PM  #7


Re: Brake Conundrum

Picture of front brake system. I also use stainles brake lines at all corners.

     Thread Starter
 

9/07/2015 7:26 PM  #8


Re: Brake Conundrum

Well Frank, your hardware is almost identical to what I have on my 65. I have the factory KH in front and the SSBC rear discs with a 1.0" dual chamber MC. I installed the 70 four wheel distribution block that MustangSteve (and everyone else) sells. There has been a lot of discussion on the forum about separate proportioning valves for the rear discs, with about equal numbers of folks using them, and an equal amount not. Use the stock brake pushrod with about 1/32" clearance before contact.

With manual brakes it is almost impossible to generate enough line pressure to lock up disc brakes. That is a good thing. Locked brakes put you out of control. I have never locked a wheel on my car and that is fine with me, my brakes work fine for my uses. Of course, I am a large guy with legs like tree trunks. You may not generate as much pedal pressure as I do.

Why don't you try a 15/16" MC and see if that moves you into your comfort zone. There are 7/8" MC out there, but you may not have enough pedal travel to use one of those.

 

9/07/2015 7:28 PM  #9


Re: Brake Conundrum

What pads did you order with your kit?  For the R-4 it says "Optimum R-4 operating temperatures are 450°F and above.  Throughout the entire heat range, the carbon kevlar material will give extremely consistent modulation and predictably smooth release characteristics up to threshold.  Not recommend for street use!" so if you are not getting them hot enough, you may not be getting proper action.  On the other hand, if the pads were not properly bedded (whether the R-4 or the R-4S) they won't want to stop if they are glazed.  Their web site states that 1" is optimal for the M/C.  The standard 66 distribution block does not have the safety features of the later blocks if your front or rear system fails.  Do some searches on combo valves/distribution blocks and look at various plumbing options.  I don't think that the 66 block is causing your current problems, however.  Is your proportioning valve fully open for testing purposes?  There were some threads a few weeks ago regarding open and closed positions so make sure it is fully open for your product.

How far from the firewall is your brake pedal when fully "up"?  Is there a spring on the brake pedal?  If the pedal is too close to the firewall at rest, this could affect your ratios and although you probably can't go over-center, you may be losing effective pedal travel if it is too close to the firewall.

You may need to contact SSBC on the proper setup of the e-brake on their system to ensure that you are not getting excessive brake pedal travel while filling the calipers.

Other standard things to check - make sure your brake lines do not go above the level of the M/C as this can trap air than can't be easily purged.

A check that may help would be to block the rear system fully and check actuation of just the front brakes and if necessary repeat by blocking the fronts (wouldn't recommend driving on only rears).  At this point I am at the limit of my suggestions and experience.

 

9/07/2015 7:43 PM  #10


Re: Brake Conundrum

If you took brand new brakes and immediately went out and checked them out with panic stops, the pads may be fried.
What mc are you using?
Are the front brakes plumbed to the port nearest the firewall?


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/10/2015 8:15 PM  #11


Re: Brake Conundrum

For my manual 4-wheel disc brake setup, the master cylinder I'm using is from a 94/95 Cobra SVT, 15/16" bore, as recommended by Baer (rear brake supplier).  Pedal travel is more than I'd like, but firm.  Pedal presssure is higher than I'd like, but not unmanageable for this street driver.  Some sort of power assist is in the plans for the future.
Hope this helps.
 


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

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