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10/10/2015 1:47 PM  #1


What Harmonic Balancer?

On my 1965 fastback I am still chasing vibration and I do have vibration at a stand still. I am considering changing out the harmonic balancer. Engine is an original 289 c5ae-6015e with power steering, a mild RV cam and AC. Current balancer is stock, about .78" thick, 6" across and sticks out 2" from the block. What weight harmonic balancer do I need? Any suggestion on a reputable brand? Also good contrast for old eyes?
Thank you!

 

10/10/2015 3:55 PM  #2


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

I believe you will need a dampener for 28 oz unbalance and made to accept a three bolt crank pulley. 

Any chance that the outer part of the dampener has spun a bit?  Timing marks being wacko would indicate that...still will require a replacement but if the marks are wacko it would be a good indication of the problem.

BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

10/10/2015 4:21 PM  #3


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

The SUMMIT replacement balancer has worked well for me.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/11/2015 8:51 AM  #4


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Check the balancer for a split keyway. I had this happen to me on a '66 fastback I used to have. The keyway in the harmonic balacer split all the way down the slot and was allowing the entire balancer to spin over on the crankshaft snout. The engine would make a knocking sound at idle. At speed, it would go from running smoothly to shaking violently --as the balancer would spin from being in phase to being out of phase with the crank.

When I discovered what was wrong, I replaced the balancer but not the Woodruff key. The problem came back a short time later and a second balancer cracked. Upon closer inspection, I saw the sharp edge of the Woodruff key had rounded over, allowing the second balancer to do the same thing as the first one.

That's been some years ago but, best I remember, it was a #43 Woodruff key.

 

10/11/2015 5:32 PM  #5


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Pioneer makes a decent balancer, and also for some of the harder to find stuff, dampner dudes can re do dampners. A word of caution though, we have had a couple dampner dudes dampners off by a couple degrees. No matter who's dampner you buy if you have the capability of verifying true TDC on your dampner I would recommend doing it. Last tip- white out-( the stuff for covering pen mistakes) works good for marking degree marks on dampners and shows up well with a timing light.

 

10/11/2015 5:58 PM  #6


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

That's good advice.  A thread in piston stop is pretty cheap, and makes it easy to find TDC.  I've often found factory balancers off by a couple of degrees, sometimes by a lot due to balancer/pointer compatibility issues. 

 

10/20/2015 9:54 AM  #7


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

I had good luck with professional products dampers too.

 

10/20/2015 8:32 PM  #8


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

+1 with MachTJ pioneer makes a good stock replacement.

 

10/20/2015 9:27 PM  #9


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Check the flexplate to see if the weight fell off of it. As far as the dampner goes, even if some of the rubber is missing but it has not turned it will still cause a vibration. 

 

10/21/2015 2:59 AM  #10


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

fordsbyjay wrote:

Check the flexplate to see if the weight fell off of it. As far as the dampner goes, even if some of the rubber is missing but it has not turned it will still cause a vibration. 

 
IMHO, a bit of missing rubber will be a non event balance wise.  Also it is not likely that the balance weight has fallen off since this vehicle is a std tranny and the weight is a cast part of the flywheel.  The pressure plate or possibly the clutch disk may have a problem, but without observing the vibration in person, an accurate assessment is only a SWAG.
Best
Al

Last edited by Al Newman (10/21/2015 3:02 AM)


Classic cars are full of surprises and almost none of them are good ones!
 

10/21/2015 5:49 PM  #11


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

On a somewhat related note...  On my daughter's 2000 Mustang V6, it developed a terrible vibration that felt just like a harmonic balancer went out.  Check the TDC marks and it all lined up.  Pulled the balancer to check for cracks or rotated outer ring or other damage.  Found absolutely nothing wrong with it.  Put it back on and tried plugs and wires, etc.

Well, it turned out to be the balancer after all.  Bought a new one and put it on and the thing ran as smooth as brand new.  That one still baffles me to this day.  And that was on the advice of a high school kid at OReilly's whose dad owned a mechanic shop and said they had seen the same thing happen before.

 


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/29/2016 5:02 PM  #12


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

All,
I haven't been able to move on this due to job change ecetera, but am now in a position to move forward. From Summit Racing I am looking at a Pioneer DA-289 harmonic balancer and also replace the woodruff key, perhaps Dorman 44774?
However, while I am in there....
Should replace timing chain with Cloyes 9-1138?
And can I use a later timing cover seal? Which one?
I also want to pick up a couple of piston stops and get started.
Does the above list look correct? Stock original 289 with mild RV cam and D5 heads, probably about 40-50K miles since rebuild.
Thanks!

     Thread Starter
 

1/29/2016 7:40 PM  #13


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

You only need one piston stop unless you plan on losing some or if you are getting multiple thread sizes. 

 

1/31/2016 5:12 AM  #14


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

William,
   I have,a used balancer you can have cheap if you want to install and see if it solves the problem.  It is a 28 oz, three bolt "C8" casting.  It has a bit more mass but should fit up without any pulley realignment issues.  Replacing the woodruff key makes sense.  Check your timing mark with a timing light.  Move the rpm range around a bit, then allow the mark to settle down at around 700 rpm.  If the mark and pointer read steady, do not worry about the chain.  A worn chain allows the reading to be erratic, jumping around by a few degrees.
Best
Al


Classic cars are full of surprises and almost none of them are good ones!
 

1/31/2016 11:16 AM  #15


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Thanks For all your help Al!
Good to see you and the Mrs again!

     Thread Starter
 

2/14/2016 2:25 PM  #16


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

All
Changed out the harmonic balancer and I still have that pesky vibration. I will change the flywheel next.
Any suggestions on flywheel and any other items while I am in there?
Signed
Teeth a chattering...

     Thread Starter
 

2/14/2016 2:50 PM  #17


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Are you sure the vibration is coming from the engine?  Is it there when you are holding whatever RPM at which you experience it driving while in neutral? 

 

2/14/2016 4:47 PM  #18


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

TKO,
With the help of Al Newman, tests were conducted with car out of gear at a standstill. When revved to 2100 rpm, engine shakes intently.
So it's not the drivetrain and it's not the suspension.
I can repeat the test each time and 2100 rpm, it shakes.
Almost everything is new on my car with a recent full on restoration.
I hope it's down to the flywheel...

     Thread Starter
 

2/14/2016 5:59 PM  #19


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Unbalance forces increase at a rate of the square of the speed.  So, vibration at 4200 will be four times worse than at 2100.  I can't tell from your post but does it start to feel bad at 2100 or is it worse at 2100 and better at 2500?

If it has a bad spot but gets better above, you are most likely dealing with a resonance issue.  Resonance occurs when you have a forcing function/frequency that excites a natural frequency of some structural component.  With a reciprocating engine, you will not be able to remove all forces such as engine firing and some slight unbalance so the best thing, when resonance is suspected, is to ensure that there are no structural natural frequencies that fall within the normal speed range of the engine.

One of the most likely culprits if it is indeed particularly bad at 2100 but better above is the exhaust system.  The pipes and mufflers are lightly damped in most cases which means that they can vibrate heavily with even slight provocation.  To test, drive some wooden wedges between the exhaust pipes from the engine back and see if the speed range changes or if it clears up.

Another possibility is that the engine and transmission assembly has a natural frequency on the mounts at 2100 RPM.  Loose or old mounts or combinations of urethane and rubber may create a natural frequency in this speed range or the mounts may not be providing proper damping.

The last thing I can think of for something that is very speed specific/sensitive may be engine misfire when unloaded due to a combination of mixture since you are still on the idle circuit (assuming carb) and advance.

But, before I ponder on other speed sensitive items, please confirm that whether it gets worse and worse or if it is only at 2100.  From what I have heard from others that have gotten the flywheel wrong (28 versus 50), the car shakes badly at idle and gets far worse as you go up in RPM.

 

2/14/2016 7:24 PM  #20


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Never had exhaust vibration shake a car that hard with everything stock!

Last edited by MWM (2/14/2016 7:26 PM)

     Thread Starter
 

2/14/2016 7:56 PM  #21


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

But does it shake at all speeds?  Is it bad at idle?  Does it get far worse above 2100?

At resonance the vibration in a lightly damped system can be quite dramatic so don't discount it.  In troubleshooting you have to consider all possibilities and the possibilities that "can't be" are often exactly what's wrong.

 

2/14/2016 8:25 PM  #22


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

MWM wrote:

TKO,
With the help of Al Newman, tests were conducted with car out of gear at a standstill. When revved to 2100 rpm, engine shakes intently.
So it's not the drivetrain and it's not the suspension.
I can repeat the test each time and 2100 rpm, it shakes.
Almost everything is new on my car with a recent full on restoration.
I hope it's down to the flywheel...

Okay, then that makes sense.  My concern is someone reading this later on without that knowledge and chasing a vibration in their engine when really its elsewhere. 

 

2/15/2016 9:14 AM  #23


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Although we tested the vibration and determined that the driveline was the unlikely source of your problem, there still is a nagging feeling that the tranny is involved.  Maybe a failed pilot bushing or some problem with the tranny input shaft or a mis-aligned tranny adapter plate.  I have personal experience with your tranny when it was in PO's vehicle, and it most definitely was the source of PO's bad vibration.
On the other end, check fan blades, compressor, alternator and ps pump alignment.  Vibration does not feel ignition related.  Exhaust is a long shot but is a possibility.  Vibration does not feel like it is coming from the chassis.  That's all I got.  I'm out.
Al


Classic cars are full of surprises and almost none of them are good ones!
 

2/15/2016 11:02 AM  #24


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

Ya, it's best not to eliminate even a new part w/o confirmation. Had what sounded and felt like a misfire on a 93 BMw 525, and my ASE mechanic friend guaranteed me it was one of the coils. Couldn't track it down. While watching the engine idle I noticed the fan wasn't spinning true. Turned out to be the fan clutch. Who'd a thunk?


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/19/2016 3:24 PM  #25


Re: What Harmonic Balancer?

All,
So since I am going to have to pull the tranny, may address the following:
Flywheel - can I go with a lighter unit? Maybe steel 20lb?
Clutch - Centerforce II?
Replace pilot bushing?
Throw out bearing
Replace tail shaft seal
Replace tail shaft bushing?
Anything else while I am in there?

     Thread Starter
 

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