FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

1/06/2016 7:56 PM  #1


rear steer rack and pinion

I'm in the process of building a restomod out of my 66 coupe adding a bolt in cradle for a narrowed jag IRS. I'd like to follow suit by adding a bolt in rack n pinion. So my question is has anyone swapped in a rack from a Dodge omni or Plymouth horizon using 67-68 v8 spindles? Since my understanding is that both of these are rear steer and have the same thread pattern on the tie rod ends

 

1/07/2016 12:43 AM  #2


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

First off are you converting from a straight six? If not your better off keeping the 66 spindles or you will have bumpsteer. The omni and horizon rack and pinions don't have enough travel, that is unless you were looking at the custom omni based racks but those are to wide. You're better off doing a j rack and pinion out of gm grand am beretta etc they use center mounted tie Rods instead of the end mount.

To use the gm rack this is what you'll need:

1 You will need frame mounting brackets ( made my own)
2 tie Rod spacer to space out to original spot. ( made my own)
3 Hydraulic lines Napa can make them 
4 two universal joints ( one that's a 3/4" dd x 3/4" dd, and one 3/4" dd x 17mm dd that's subject to the year of rack and oinion early models are splined). I ordered mine off eBay best deal!
5 intermediate steering shaft  ( I got one universal and shaft together as a kit then had to get the other)
6 coulmn shaft support bearing with retainer (which MS sales here)
7  floor mount plate to hold the column in place and a steel plate welded to the floor to close up the oem hole. (Again made my own)
8 welder duh and steel for bracket plus four jack stands and time.  Lol

When I did my j rack and pinion conversion I got a used 94 beretta rack with everything else new and I was only out 195$  If you go this rout take your time to figure out how the rack should be mounted. It isn't hard I had my car on jack stands and use two extra under the rack so I could move it around to get it to where I knew it should work. After that for my templets I used some tin and bent out my shape I needed and then transferred it.

Or a kit rack and pinion but they don't have enough travel as well 3/8" is lost. Or a kit steering box conversion. Or you can mod a cadillac catera box and use it.  The box fits awesome but you have to either have the OE pitman arm resplined. The option that some tri five chevy guys use With the sag boxes is they use the old sector shaft and modify it to fit in the new box so they don't have to worry about the pitman arm and that may work although I haven't checked to be sure. 

don't mind the brown paper on the column it was to protect it when it was being test fit.





I had to shorten the column 8"






I didn't have the tie Rod bracket I made hooked up in this pic. I cut my center link and held it up in place so I could use it as a reference for where my rack and to be and to figure out my tie Rod spacing and mounting.

Last edited by True74yamaha (1/07/2016 12:49 AM)

 

1/07/2016 7:42 AM  #3


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Yes I will b replacing the six cylinder with the 5.0 coyote Which will require modifying inner fenders n removing shock towers. I've built my share of drag cars but turning radius or tire scrub and bump steer wasn't an issue. I have access to the front subframe of the jag that I removed the IRS from. If my measurement was correct the frame rails are about 1 inch wider than the mustang with hub to hub being 58 1/2 inches so if the cross member was narrowed by 1 inch along with removing 1/2 inch from the outer tie rods keep the geometry the same?

     Thread Starter
 

1/08/2016 3:40 AM  #4


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

that should work but when you narrow it I would shorten the cross member from the center and then shorten the inner tie rods. Is the jag front subframe a rear steer?

 

1/08/2016 7:52 AM  #5


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Is the "J" rack available in non power version?


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

1/08/2016 11:58 AM  #6


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Rudi wrote:

Is the "J" rack available in non power version?

Not sure if available in the US or Canada, but some European cars built on the J-car platform had manual r&p:s. Here's one on my workbench:

 

 

1/08/2016 1:40 PM  #7


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Rudi wrote:

Is the "J" rack available in non power version?

yes that rack is available in a non power version another rack and pinion is available on the Sabb it's the same rack and pinion as the j rack.
 

 

1/08/2016 4:10 PM  #8


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Hakan wrote:

Rudi wrote:

Is the "J" rack available in non power version?

Not sure if available in the US or Canada, but some European cars built on the J-car platform had manual r&p:s. Here's one on my workbench:

 

That looks like a nice rack. Do you know what it came out of and what the travel is?
 Might just be what I need for my EPAS.

Last edited by Rudi (1/08/2016 4:12 PM)


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

1/08/2016 5:52 PM  #9


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Rudi wrote:

That looks like a nice rack. Do you know what it came out of and what the travel is?
 Might just be what I need for my EPAS.

I have to some research on what it came out as I don't remember, several European cars were built on the GM J-car platform, I'll be back!

The travel is 160mm, 6.29" or 6 5/16", but it looks like you could make the center take off opening in it a little larger. Not sure what the limit of the r&p itself is though.
 

 

1/08/2016 6:16 PM  #10


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Did some research and it's most likely out of a Opel Ascona C 1982 - 1988. The Wikipedia page on the "GM J platform" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_J_platform is missing a lot of info on the European cars, but at least seem to list all the US made ones? Not sure if any of them was available with non power steering. Finding another Opel Ascona C non power r&p over here would be cheap and easy, but I guess not very cheap to ship to Canada.

 

1/09/2016 2:57 AM  #11


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Check early 80s chevy cavaliers.

 

1/09/2016 6:04 AM  #12


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Thanks guys, that is a big help on my search for the rack.
 Anyone have the "J" rack travel dimensions and if they are similar to the O/E travel of the manual steering?
 If not, is it possible  to increase the travel?
 Initially I wanted to use the EPAS with an O/E manual steering linkage set up with the newer style Flaming River steering box that I have but I would like to consider the "J" rack as well. Might  go for the whole enchilada.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

1/09/2016 6:25 AM  #13


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Nuther question!
 If I took a power "J" rack and removed all of the exterior hydraulic boost components, would it be a viable alternative to a manual "J" rack?
 The reason I'm asking, a Cardone rebuilt power rack is 1/3 the price of a similar manual rack.
 


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

1/09/2016 9:01 AM  #14


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

I know some people who run the power racks as manual so thats no issue for you.  As for dimentions as I think I mentioned above you loose 3/8" travel. In my other big rack and pinion thread I mention how you enlarge the internal stop window 1/4" this will then give the rack and pinion 6 1/2" full travel. So it will have the same amount and more then the mustangs. The hardest part in the build is the Tie Rod connecting plate that you have to fabricate, and even these were pretty simple.  You just habe to take your time no rushing.  And use tin snips and tin sheeting to use for templets. I though using that worked out great so you can really figure out the angle for the tie Rod adapter as well as the angle on the driver side frame rail bracket. By the way look at RockAuto.com look up 1983 chevy 😁 cavalier they sell the manual rack and pinion for $172.00 but is still more than the power rack and pinion. If converting to power rack should you ever want to you can use a never power steering pump off newer ford cars and trucks that were running v8s and they will bolt on to the stock 65 bracket.

Last edited by True74yamaha (1/09/2016 9:45 AM)

 

1/09/2016 9:31 AM  #15


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Rudi wrote:

Is the "J" rack available in non power version?

 
So everyone knows the J rack is available in a non power assist version. Several manufactures sell either of these in kits. But as I was showing others you can easily adapt the steering conversion to your mustang and many other rear steer cars. The power and manual rack and pinions puts out 6 1/8" travel before the stops are then hit. However after modifying the rack slightly you can gain travel.  And then you will
Have a rack and pinion that puts out 6 1/2" travel total. If you choose to not modify the rack you will notice slightly smaller turning radius but still tolerable. All manufactures randalls rack steeroids and others all use this rack and pinion the only one that strays from using basically an off the shelf rack is randalls rack and pinion design as his design moves the tie Rod mounts to the back of the rack and pinion making it so his bracket and mount. None of the kits out there give you full travel besides I think TCP'S rack and pinion I beleive.

Last edited by True74yamaha (1/09/2016 9:52 AM)

 

1/09/2016 9:39 AM  #16


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Also for those who don't want a rack because you don't like how close the tie rods mount you may want to install a cadillac catera steering box. They fit in our cars like gloves once you make either a frame rail adapter bracket or modify the box and weld on the correct mount. As well as modify the pitman arm. The only other boxes that will fit with modifications again are bmw, volvo,jeep grand chereokee's, and Isuzu. The bmw and volvo boxes I forget the models I apologize these boxes are nearly identical to the catera box. The only difference is the way they mount to the frame rail.

 

1/09/2016 9:43 AM  #17


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

1/10/2016 10:02 PM  #18


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

True74yamaha wrote:

Also for those who don't want a rack because you don't like how close the tie rods mount you may want to install a cadillac catera steering box. They fit in our cars like gloves once you make either a frame rail adapter bracket or modify the box and weld on the correct mount. As well as modify the pitman arm. The only other boxes that will fit with modifications again are bmw, volvo,jeep grand chereokee's, and Isuzu. The bmw and volvo boxes I forget the models I apologize these boxes are nearly identical to the catera box. The only difference is the way they mount to the frame rail.

What pitman arm do you use with the Catera box?  That was the biggest problem I had when I adapted the Isuzu box - had to weld the mustang section of the idler arm to the Isuzu idler arm because of the different sector shafts.
 


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

1/11/2016 3:11 AM  #19


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

jkordzi wrote:

True74yamaha wrote:

Also for those who don't want a rack because you don't like how close the tie rods mount you may want to install a cadillac catera steering box. They fit in our cars like gloves once you make either a frame rail adapter bracket or modify the box and weld on the correct mount. As well as modify the pitman arm. The only other boxes that will fit with modifications again are bmw, volvo,jeep grand chereokee's, and Isuzu. The bmw and volvo boxes I forget the models I apologize these boxes are nearly identical to the catera box. The only difference is the way they mount to the frame rail.

What pitman arm do you use with the Catera box?  That was the biggest problem I had when I adapted the Isuzu box - had to weld the mustang section of the idler arm to the Isuzu idler arm because of the different sector shafts.
 

When doing the catera swap you use the catera pitman arm, and I beleive you just flip it over and it has very close tapper to that of the manual mustang center links from what I've been told. But it im wrong you could simply weld up the tapered hole and then drill and re tapper the hole out to proper dimentions that you need. You don't have a ton of options on the catera pitman it uses a metric size which I beleive is 32-31 taper. The catera box is an xf brand box, that being said it has similar options like it on 90s bmw and Audi. Sorry I've not done the catera box swap personaly on a mustang yet. I How ever have done that catera box swap on a 56 crown Vic, 1932 model B  and a couple other of my hot rod buddies cars. It fits awesome fits great compact and looks like it's original some what.

The other box that fits well on the 56 fords, mustangs and other cars is the jeep grand chereokee box. It has a shorter sector shaft then the catera box.  but it does have a more common 1.25" sector shaft, this is nice because you can choose from many pitman arms. For it to be used on a mustang If I remember right you'll need to use a Camaro pitman arm and it has a really close taper to the mustang. I have actually made custom pitman arms,centerlinks to adapt to the box. I do know that a lot of people on tri five Chevys that actually will take their stock sector shaft from the steering box and modify it to fit in the saginaw boxes.  This way they can use the stock pitman arm that goes with the sector shaft this way they have isues of welding a pitman arm together.

Last edited by True74yamaha (1/26/2016 9:13 PM)

 

1/11/2016 3:13 AM  #20


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Does any one here have a centerlink for a mustang? This way they could measure the taper on the shaft that connects to the pit man arm. I would be able to find out what pitman arms will fit from other boxes.

 

1/11/2016 4:16 AM  #21


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

jkordzi wrote:

True74yamaha wrote:

Also for those who don't want a rack because you don't like how close the tie rods mount you may want to install a cadillac catera steering box. They fit in our cars like gloves once you make either a frame rail adapter bracket or modify the box and weld on the correct mount. As well as modify the pitman arm. The only other boxes that will fit with modifications again are bmw, volvo,jeep grand chereokee's, and Isuzu. The bmw and volvo boxes I forget the models I apologize these boxes are nearly identical to the catera box. The only difference is the way they mount to the frame rail.

What pitman arm do you use with the Catera box?  That was the biggest problem I had when I adapted the Isuzu box - had to weld the mustang section of the idler arm to the Isuzu idler arm because of the different sector shafts.
 

Sorry it just hit me I remembered a build I did a while back which needed either a pitman arm or a custom draglink. What anyone could do to make any pitman that fits the box also fit is cut the drag link off at a certain length and then thread to the right size to use either s heim joint wither a stud or bolt or even a tie Rod and sleeve. This would make it simple to adapt any tie centerlink and pitman together.

 

1/11/2016 11:01 PM  #22


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

True74yamaha wrote:

I know some people who run the power racks as manual so thats no issue for you. As for dimentions as I think I mentioned above you loose 3/8" travel. In my other big rack and pinion thread I mention how you enlarge the internal stop window 1/4" this will then give the rack and pinion 6 1/2" full travel. So it will have the same amount and more then the mustangs. The hardest part in the build is the Tie Rod connecting plate that you have to fabricate, and even these were pretty simple. You just habe to take your time no rushing. And use tin snips and tin sheeting to use for templets. I though using that worked out great so you can really figure out the angle for the tie Rod adapter as well as the angle on the driver side frame rail bracket. By the way look at RockAuto.com look up 1983 chevy 😁 cavalier they sell the manual rack and pinion for $172.00 but is still more than the power rack and pinion. If converting to power rack should you ever want to you can use a never power steering pump off newer ford cars and trucks that were running v8s and they will bolt on to the stock 65 bracket.

Do you know how many turns lock to lock the manual rack is vs the power rack ? 
 


The amount of fun is directly proportionate to the damage done.
 

1/12/2016 12:52 AM  #23


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

For power rack it is 2 1/2 - 3 turns depending on if you build a kit, this is because they had different options on the racks. The manual steer as far as I know it 4 turns lock to lock. If you do my suggested modification you would be just an extra 1/2" when doing my midification you'll get full travel.

 

1/12/2016 5:12 PM  #24


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

Lil' Hoss wrote:

Do you know how many turns lock to lock the manual rack is vs the power rack ?  

Just a little more than 4 turns from lock to lock:




 

 

1/13/2016 10:16 PM  #25


Re: rear steer rack and pinion

True74yamaha wrote:

.... If converting to power rack should you ever want to you can use a newer power steering pump off newer ford cars and trucks that were running v8s and they will bolt on to the stock 65 bracket.

The Thompson power steering pump was used on Ford cars and trucks from 1965-1977. It will have a stamped steel reservoir housing. With the exception of the '65/'66 model pumps, the '67-'77 Thompson pumps had a very skinny filler neck where the dipstick went in. These Thompson PS pumps were nicknamed 'pencil neck' pumps.

At the end of 1977, the Thompson PS pump was dropped and the Ford CII (C-2) PS pump went into production and was used on Ford cars and trucks. It was in production until about 2003. It has a plastic reservoir with a large diameter filler neck and cap.

Thompson PS brackets and Ford C-2 PS brackets are not interchangeable with each other. Bracket design will be dependent on what engine it's designed to be used with.
 

 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.