MachTJ wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

A lot is made of the rod/stroke ratio, and I've certainly built engine around that principle.  It took some doing to build my Chevy 383 using a 6" rod and a piston that did not need oil ring supports, but I wanted the longer rod.  I have noticed in recent years though as I've watched the Engine Masters Challenge that there have been winners running R/S ratios of as low as 1:35, which flys in the face of conventional wisdom.  I note this challenge a lot because it draws professional engine builders such as Joe Sherman, John Kasse, etc. and showcases everything from Ford FEs to Oldsmobiles to Buicks to Mopars to Chevys.  Heck, there was a Y-block in one challenge!  It gathers together some of the smartest guys in the industry who've logged millions of hours of dyno time and what they turn out year to year is fascinating.  Sometimes what everyone thinks is best isn't, and the challenge is done using averages, so most average power wins, which is a lot harder than making a magic peak number.  Sure, there are rules each year, and to a point the engines are built under those rules, to make the most average power under those rules.  But, average power is what a street engine is all about, so the tech is pretty applicable. 

I too follow engine masters quite a bit and one thing to remember is that these are very intelligent shops making all out engines that are probably only going to run a weeks worth of dyno pulls and that's it. Whether they would last 100k miles we will never know.
 

That is true, and one thing I have noticed is that some of the engines run low drag rings and a vacuum pump, which isn't a great street combo.  But, I do remember reading that Joe Sherman said of one of this entries that with a different ring package he was confident his engine would make a great street engine, and only sacrifice about 20HP.  100k?  Maybe not because most of the top contenders are making north of 600HP, and it would be rare to have an engine making that kind of power that wasn't enormous (like 500 cubes or more) that could go that long.  Typically once you get to the 800HP level you are talking about freshening every year or so if you're racing with the engine.  Granted, street use doesn't put as much strain on an engine, but I would be surprised if a 600HP engine is going to last more than 50k and still be producing its best power. 

(Torque in foot pounds times RPM) divided by 5252 is how I learned it. Maybe it is a new math thing. My 331 ticked just over 500 HP on the dyno with my race headers and intake/carb on it. It now sits in my 65 with an intake set up for better mid range and carb for throttle response. I haven't dynoed it that way, but estimate it is still a fair amount over 400 HP. I am used to keeping the revs up when I drive, so I do not have any problem with it on the street. I have several friends with similar cars, but with a lot more cubic inches. They all hate to drive my car. But none of them can keep up with it on track! I picked tire size and gearing to utilize the torque curve of the motor. Horsepower is wonderful for bragging, but torque will get you off a corner.

There's some good information in that article, but the prices are totally unrealistic.  Stock heads are going to cost you way more than $300 to rework and flow close to what aftermarket heads can flow, and without flow there will be no power.  A set of stock E7TE heads, or even GT40s you'd be lucky to crest 300HP, but a set of AFR heads bolted onto an otherwise stock 5.0 netted 80HP.  That's 80HP with a stock cam.  IMO guys tend to be dramatically incorrect when it comes to how much money they've got tied up in an engine.  I've built a lot of engines and I can tell you, I have a 383 Chevy, literally the cheapest stroker you can build, now I went with good stuff (4340 rods, forged Mahle pistons, forged 4340 crank, and a set of reworked Edelbrock Performer RPM heads that I already had, full roller valvetrain) and I have every penny of $6k wrapped up in it.  I could have gone the cheap route with less robust internals (that would probably fail at the 600HP it can make on spray), or a flat tappet cam (which I hate and would cost me average power).  But, the heads would also have cost me another grand if I didn't already have them.  I also assembled the engine myself.

5.0/302 stuff is close in cost to SBC stuff, but its still a bit more expensive.  I know that to build an engine you'll be happy with you're going to be in the $5,000-$6,000 range for a 5.0/302 and another $2k for a stroker.  There are guys that will argue, you don't really need the aftermarket heads, you can get the power buy using a cam, and you can, but its going to be a much more radical cam than you'd need with heads that just flowed properly, so you sacrifice street manners to save a grand.  The there'll be the "just port the stock heads" guys, but this isn't a do it at home operation despite what they want to believe especially with modern castings.  You'll probably make the heads worse, especially at low lift trying to do it yourself.  So, porting is going to run you $600-$800 with a valve job, you add another $300 to rework the heads (hot tank, mag inspect, assembly, etc.) and you're at the cost of entry level aluminum heads that flow better out of the box.  There's always a way to do it cheaper, but this is one of the many instances in life where you get what you pay for. 

Take a ride in Corky's 331!!  more than enough for me!!!
 

MS wrote:

From what I saw at the Tomball bash, it is apparently more than enough for Corky as well !!!
CAVEAT EMPTOR MAILBOXICUS

SOUNDS like an inside joke, sorry I missed it! Either way, I am waiting for a report back from the engine builder as to the condition of interior components, hope to hear back in the next few days. As I have had a little time to think, I believe I am going to take a look at real world costs to build a 331 vs. just building a nicely equipped 302. I would like for the wife to be able to drive it as well and maybe a milder build might be more appropriate, try to avoid EMPTOR MAILBOXICUS!

Also, I have been thinking about what order of operations I should take to get the car back together, maybe I will start another thread pertaining to this...
 

Boring the block should be determined by the wear in the bore.  If he's measured the bores and finds them round and without taper and they are still standard bore then I would not bore the block.  Boring is something I do only when necessary, to return the cylinders to round and free of taper.  Boring removes material and will mean less service life down the road at the next overhaul.  If you bore it 0.030 now you might not be able to save the block at the next overhaul.  If it doesn't need to be bored now you've got meat left for next time. 

For a typical street engine I would use hypereutectic pistons.  They run a tighter piston to wall clearance and will make less noise and burn less oil, as well as lasting longer.  The only reason not to use them is if you plan to run nitrous or boost. 

If the crank is worn out then you can either have it turned undersize or replace it.  If you're going to replace it then the question becomes do you replace it with a longer stroke crank and build a stroker.  Again though, we're into cost.  You could replace just the crank with a standard 302 crank for probably $90.  With a stroker kit you're buying the whole kit, having to do machine work and possibly balancing too, easily adding close to $2,000 over just replacing a worn crank.

Cam, compression, etc. is where you have to decide what you want it to do.  Everything has to be matched.  A true 9.5:1 compression engine is good for iron heads.  I'd go to 10:1 for aluminum heads.  You have to be careful with cam specs, because there's duration at 0.050 and advertised duration.  Advertised duration can be whatever the cam company claims (not very scientific).  Duration at 0.050 is industry standard and makes for a better comparison.  Duration at 0.050 will be considerably less than advertised.

So, if you set your goal at 325-350HP from a 302 I would go with 9.5:1 compression for iron heads, 10:1 for aluminum.  Head wise I'd go with Edlebrock Performer RPM if you want aluminum.  You could actually use their top end kit (heads, cam, and intake) and be right in the ballpark you're shooting for. 

6sally6 wrote:

These discussions are fun butt can lead to many pages of posts because everybody "see's" things through their own eyes.
For sure I would have him install the left bank of pistons on the RIGHT side and the right bank on the LEFT side. WHY?! Because the wrist pins are offset on SBF pistons. By reversing the piston in the bore...it puts the rod angle at a more favorable angle, giving you free HP.(approx. 5% more). A lot of old Ford mechanics know about this.....I guess that makes me old, huh?!
Camshaft stuff. ...On the street CR above9.5:1(iron heads) can "sometimes" be problematic with spark knock/rattling/
detonation because you are right at the "limit" of crappy non-leaded "modern" fuel. Especially with A/T.
A cam with tighter LSA of 110* or less.. and longer duration will allow some compression to bleed off at low speeds/low RPM..which is a good thing! Lift is only limited by valve springs and piston to valve clearance. The more the better! IMHO!!  
Removing any/all sharp edges/corners in the combustion chamber can prevent hot spots.
Port matching intake/exhaust  is "assumed" to help butt-knot by much. Common sense tells me a smooth exhaust port could only help an engine make more power.
It's a combination of small things,which added up,can make nice improvements in power.
6s6

Tell me more,  so you are saying to swap #1 with #5 and so on.   The numbers are stamped on the rod and cap, so if someone else was to tear down the engine wouldn't they be confused?  why didn't Ford do this?
 

6Sally6 I can see that happening  threads become full with peoples input and ideas based on personal experiences, not a bad thing but it becomes a lot for someone like me with limited knowledge of motor works and it all starts to run together and get a little convoluted, I am essentially taking notes and picking out things I think make the most sense and taking that back to the man building the motor so we can figure out the best way to get this 302 built.

  TKO, I like the idea of the "top end kit" and found a few from Edlebrock at a reasonable price, like this one:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2027/overview/
 However I have not found a "kit" that has a roller cam, maybe I am wrong? It seems like a pretty good deal with heads, studs, timing chain, intake and everything included ready to go!
  I then looked for bottom end "kits" came up with this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-mhp173-000/overview/

Then I thought to myself, how much more for a 331 rebuild kit ( because I have not completely abandoned that  idea: http://www.americanmuscle.com/scatstroker-331-cast-7995.html

Not a whole lot more for a 331, am I correct in my thinking, I know I would need to bore the cylinders which the builder said if approx. 25$ per cylinder and have it hot tanked/magnafluxed and checked for cracks. I am just making sure I have all my ducks in a row before I go back and talk to him tomorrow and make the final decision, let me know what else I am missing....
 

I believe you're correct on the Edelbrock kits, they come with flat tappet cams.  But, what you could do is buy the intake, heads, etc. from the kit (Edelbrock sells everything a la carte also), and then just match the cam specs from the cam in the kit to a roller cam.  You'll still get all the benefits of a roller cam, as the roller will deliver more power under the curve while still easily hitting the peak numbers the kit advertises.  There is some stuff to consider (pushrod length, etc.), but the guy putting the engine together should be able to figure that stuff out. 

For the 331 you have to realize that you are looking at only the parts.  Machining is a whole other cost.  So, the kit is $960, but a balance job is going to add another $150, if you need heavy metal you're looking at $70 per slug and it could take 2 to balance out, you are going to have to clearance the block which is likely about $150-$200, and if the pistons are not available standard bore you are going to have to bore the block at about $260.  So all told you're in it for $1,710 before you know which end is up.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying, understanding that budget was a concern, be sure you know what you're getting yourself into.  I'm all for building the most engine you can afford.  I just know how stuff ends up sitting when costs exceed your plans. 

ultrastang wrote:

You may be interested in reading this.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mufp-0602-ford-stroker-engine/

 Hey Thanks Ultrastang, that was an informative good read! Makes me want to take the old 302 or 289 engine I have in my garage and start tinkering around to get more familiar with the inner workings of these motors, after all I did buy a copy of Tom Monroe's "How to rebuild small-block ford engines" for a reason! As a lot of things related to motor work are still foreign to me, I would like to change that.

 I should be tying in with my builder today to get things going, and have a fairly strong idea of where I need to go from here to get this motor built- somewhere between a nicely built 302 and 327(bowtie)331 stroker depending on how much I want to be invested in this. To me it makes sense to build a strong a bottom end to start with then figure out the top end in correlation with that, I am sure the builder will have his share of input and ideas of his own.

Do I need to have the block hot tanked, and magnafluxed regardless of how I plan on building the motor?
 

6sally6 wrote:

Hot tank YES, nothing like strting off with a nice clean block(still need to wash with hot water and soap and wipe down with Brakcleen)-I love that stuff-...........magnafluxed probably not unless it will make you sleep better at night.
I didn't and it was a 5.0 from a junkyard with unknown history. Now...if you plan power adders like spray or turbo/supercharging then it will be cheap insurance. Just my opinion.
6s6

Yeah I spoke with him a little bit ago and he said yes of course we will hot tank/inspect before moving forward. He also said it is in need of boring and suggested 30 over, with Hyper pistons to match, molly rings, and something about Crank - 10/10? (not sure what that means but I nodded and played along) with new bearings, and said the crank could just be turned.
Then he went on to suggest pistons of the flat top variety with teflon coating(?) which he will obtain from his supplier when he goes to Portland on Friday. Also said we can discuss a cam/springs down the road a bit, but was leaning towards 260-268 ish and I told him I am adding a power brake booster so I need the vacuum for that.

 Other those notes I had taken, I think we are on our way to having a nice 302 built that should suit my needs and be able produce some g-forces.
 

TKO is on to something here in that these motors do really like the "Squish". I notice a big difference when you go zero deck and even better at .011 to .014 out of the hole. 

.030 over pistons are typically the first oversize that you can go on most engines. I don't think .020 are even available. 10/10 rods and mains are exactly what TKO typed, its a very common practice. Decking the block is resurfacing the areas where the head gaskets go on the block. The block is mounted off of the main journals and the decks of the block is then cut parallel to the main journals and the height from the left and right bank is equalized. Normally you have to mock up the crank in the block with rods and pistons in the 4 corners and measurements taken from the deck to the top of the piston to know how much has to come off before any surfacing action is taken. The machinist would do these operations before any final assembly would take place.

Last edited by MachTJ (3/09/2016 9:26 PM)