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9/09/2016 6:04 AM  #1


Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

So when my '67 sits for 2 days, it becomes harder to start.  4 days it is really hard to start.  Tracking down the cause was simple - the fuel is somehow draining fro the carb and fuel lines and the pump needs to re-prime.  I can actuate the pedal and squirt 4-6 squirts into the throat before it runs dry.  Any ideas as to why it is draining?  Maybe a leak by the pump, but I don't really smell gas.

I have a Edelbrock carb, never had the issue before.  I put in a Holley fuel pressure regulator recently, but I don't recall if I had that problem immediately after installing that.  I don't think I did, but can't be certain since it was a while ago and the car sat a long time shortly afterwards while I redid the entire interior and floor pans. 

Unless anyone has any bright ideas, I am going to try pulling the regulator temporarily to see if that does anything.  I need the regulator long term since my pressure is much too high otherwise and I run really rich.  

 

9/09/2016 9:13 AM  #2


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

I am assuming you have a stock mechanical fuel pump.

First, ditch the regulator.  Permanently.  You do not need it.  Then verify the float level is set correctly.

Then, check the vent on your fuel tank to see if possibly the hole is clogged causing the tank to build a vacuum on the system as it cools off after driving.

Be sure your hard line from the pump to the carb is not touching anything that could get it hot, causing an expanding bubble to push fuel back.  Also check hard line under the car for possible heat source nearby.

Just suggestions, nothing concrete, but maybe this will get you heading in the right direction.  If it was a Holley, I would suspect the accelerator pump leaking.  Edelbrock should not have anything external to leak.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/09/2016 9:35 AM  #3


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Good thoughts.  I don't think it is temperature or vacuum buildup related - it seems to be dependent on time, not driving.  I can drive it fine, shut it down, next morning starts up perfect, cut it out before anything gets hot.  Wait 2 days, then hard starting.

I'm going to try getting the regulator out and see what happens.  From what I had going on before it was idling way too rich - the pressure was so high it was keeping the needle valves open so it never fully went over to the idle circuit.  
 

     Thread Starter
 

9/09/2016 4:03 PM  #4


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

My Edelbroke does the same think only  more days to drain down.
I THINK its the needle/seat leaking.....letting the fuel drain out of the carb.
Pull the top of the carb and have-a-look(easy enough to do)
May be just a leaky gasket/o ring OR....have a can of carb cleaner/Brakleen(I love that stuff!) handy all the time.
If its like mine......a good squirt down the throat(no pun!) a couple of times  will get it fired right up(again no pun!)
Let me know what you find Tag!
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

9/09/2016 4:08 PM  #5


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Do you have a carb spacer/insulator?  After shutdown, the fuel will tend to evaporate/percolate more quickly if the carb is sitting directly on the manifold. A 1" spacer works well if 1) it is a type that fully seals top and bottom.  I had one that was open on the bottom and it didn't seal on the manifold with the correct gasket; 2) you use the correct longer studs; and 3) you have room to close the hood.

 

9/09/2016 4:11 PM  #6


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

6sally6 wrote:

My Edelbroke does the same think only  more days to drain down.
I THINK its the needle/seat leaking.....letting the fuel drain out of the carb.
Pull the top of the carb and have-a-look(easy enough to do)
May be just a leaky gasket/o ring OR....have a can of carb cleaner/Brakleen(I love that stuff!) handy all the time.
If its like mine......a good squirt down the throat(no pun!) a couple of times  will get it fired right up(again no pun!)
Let me know what you find Tag!
6s6

every Edelbrock carb I ever used did the same thing when it sets for a while.  I have replaced them with a Holley and they set for a month or so and start up right away.  On some vehicles with a Edelbrock, I use electric fuel pumps with a primer switch to fill the bowl prior to start.  Otherwise, keep a squirt bottle with gas and give it a couple squirts prior to starting.  Jery
 


"when I drop something, it always goes to center of the car"
 

9/09/2016 5:54 PM  #7


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

My OEM 2bbl 2100 Autolite does the same thing.  Maybe 3-5 days for it to occur.  I have often thought of rigging an electric booster pump that I could switch on for a few seconds before attempting to start.  Haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

9/09/2016 8:49 PM  #8


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

boomyal wrote:

My OEM 2bbl 2100 Autolite does the same thing.  Maybe 3-5 days for it to occur.  I have often thought of rigging an electric booster pump that I could switch on for a few seconds before attempting to start.  Haven't gotten around to it yet.

 
Someone posted about six months ago about building a hybrid fuel pump system to do just that. I did a quick search and could not find it. A timeout relay and a check valve should be all you need. Plumb both electric and manual fuel pumps in parallel with the check valve downstream of the electric pump. A cheap, low pressure electric fuel pump is $10-20.

 

9/09/2016 11:44 PM  #9


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Hornman wrote:

boomyal wrote:

My OEM 2bbl 2100 Autolite does the same thing.  Maybe 3-5 days for it to occur.  I have often thought of rigging an electric booster pump that I could switch on for a few seconds before attempting to start.  Haven't gotten around to it yet.

 
Someone posted about six months ago about building a hybrid fuel pump system to do just that. I did a quick search and could not find it. A timeout relay and a check valve should be all you need. Plumb both electric and manual fuel pumps in parallel with the check valve downstream of the electric pump. A cheap, low pressure electric fuel pump is $10-20.

When you say "in parallel" do you mean to tie into the fuel line coming from the tank to the mechanical fuel pump?  Seems to me you could do it in series with the booster pump between the mechanical pump and the carb.

That line most likely stays flooded even if the fuel drains or evaporates out of the float bowl(s) and once the engine started, the mechanical pump should be able to pump right thru the electric pump.
 

 

9/09/2016 11:51 PM  #10


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

My Edelbrock 1406 can sit for two days or two months and it lights right off. I have a phenolic 1" spacer under the carb. I have a stock fuel pump. 


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

9/10/2016 3:31 PM  #11


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

All that stuff about secondary pumps seems a little ridiculous to me.  There is probably a check valve in the mechanical fuel pump that is not seating.  A $20 new pump from OReilly will cure it if that is the problem.

As much as I seem to fall victim to it sometimes, it just makes no sense to add parts to a car to bandaid a problem instead of just fixing the problem.

The cars did not have fancy spacers or extra fuel pumps before and ran just perfect.  I had an Edelbrock 600CFM on the 302 in my truck.  It did not even have a choke on it, but could sit for a month and fire right up and run perfect whenever the key was turned.  I do not think there is an inherent problem with the parts you have.  There is just A problem with one of them.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/10/2016 7:46 PM  #12


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

MS wrote:

All that stuff about secondary pumps seems a little ridiculous to me.  There is probably a check valve in the mechanical fuel pump that is not seating.  A $20 new pump from OReilly will cure it if that is the problem.

As much as I seem to fall victim to it sometimes, it just makes no sense to add parts to a car to bandaid a problem instead of just fixing the problem.

The cars did not have fancy spacers or extra fuel pumps before and ran just perfect.  I had an Edelbrock 600CFM on the 302 in my truck.  It did not even have a choke on it, but could sit for a month and fire right up and run perfect whenever the key was turned.  I do not think there is an inherent problem with the parts you have.  There is just A problem with one of them.

Amen!

 

9/13/2016 7:23 AM  #13


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

I agree - there is a root problem somewhere that needs proper fixing.  It used to be able to sit for weeks and fire right up on the first go around.  Although if I were to do a patch fix, I'd put a cheap one-way check valve in the fuel line as close to the carb as I could get it. So reason to overthink it.  But I would rather fix the root problem (well, as of now at least.  Ask me again in a few weeks).

So I pulled the regulator, then fired up the engine and ran it for 20 seconds or so then shut it down.  So this means line is primed, no heat buildup, no vacuum buildup in the fuel tank, no variable from the regulator.  Still had the hard start 2 days later.  

So looks like the issue is either a seal in the carb, or something with the fuel pump (I'm not sure if there is a check valve in the pump or something like that that normally prevents backflow).  So regulator will go back in, and the top of the carb will be coming off to inspect after it sits a few days so I can observe what level it drains to.  

     Thread Starter
 

9/13/2016 8:12 AM  #14


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

I would leave the regulator off as it is just extra weight to carry around and something that can add complexity.  Since you have narrowed down the problem, I would start with a float adjustment and new needle/seat so you are sure the carb seals.  If that does not cure it, start working upstream to the pump.

You probably just have some dirt or crud on the needle/seat or it has deteriorated over time.  Or, if a new needle/seat breaks the budget, remove the old one and clean it.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/13/2016 8:27 PM  #15


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

I agree w/following MS's advice, find the problem and fix it.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

9/13/2016 11:28 PM  #16


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

If this is the AFB or AVS type (Carter) Eddy, the body design is such that the only way it can leak is if the casting is porous. The lowest level it could drain down to would be to the level of the gasket(s) for the venturi cluster (if the gasket there was leaking), there are no gaskets (fuel related) that are lower than that point. The next thing that could drain the carb would be if the air bleed(s) were plugged, siphoning the bowl(s) dry when the engine is shut off. If this is a ThermoQuad type Eddy then you could have bowl leakage, but few people run these. Either way, with a properly dialed in choke (and everything else being good!), your car should start and run even if your pump isn't pumping up fuel at first.

An example is when my car is cold I can pump the pedal a few times, set the choke on the last stroke (manual) and start it without powering up the fuel pump (separate switch). It will immediately fire up and run for about 20-30 seconds before it drains the bowls and stalls, which makes sense with a carb with fuel still in it. Just something to consider in the pursuit of your problem.

Good luck!

ETA: You could take the top off of the carb and check the fuel level in the bowls over a couple of days to see if they lose anything (drop the cover back on to slow evaporation). Other than that the problem has to be elsewhere. In the day Carter advertised the AFB/AVS as having no gaskets below fuel level, unlike their competitor , so no leaks.

Last edited by 351MooseStang (9/14/2016 12:06 AM)

 

9/16/2016 7:50 PM  #17


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Related issue. My 68 Mustang I-6 engine had the same problem. After sitting over night it took alot of cranking to get it to run. Yesterday I replaced the fuel pump. Today it started instantly.

No idea of this is same as yours, but the pump cured mine.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/20/2016 9:09 AM  #18


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Follow up on my 68 repair involving a new fuel pump.  The car sat from Friday to Monday and started as soon as I touched the key.  I am thinking the fuel pump was not holding gas up and it was being siphoned back down to the pump.

Let us know what cures yours!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/21/2016 4:24 AM  #19


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

Not saying that you're wrong, Steve, or that your fuel pump wasn't bad, but your carburetor is still full of fuel from when you shut it off. At least it should be! One note is that I run ethanol-free gas and live in a cooler climate so I don't have fuel evaporation issues on hot shutdown. I don't know if people running ethanol blends are having that issue bit it's a possibility (I've read of it).. Either way, as long as that carb is full of gas when you go to stroke it to set the choke, it should light right up when you hit it (all things being right). It'll die shortly thereafter if fuel isn't pumped up to the carb.

It's interesting that you did see that result though.

 

9/21/2016 6:27 AM  #20


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

351MooseStang wrote:

Not saying that you're wrong, Steve, or that your fuel pump wasn't bad, but your carburetor is still full of fuel from when you shut it off. At least it should be! One note is that I run ethanol-free gas and live in a cooler climate so I don't have fuel evaporation issues on hot shutdown. I don't know if people running ethanol blends are having that issue bit it's a possibility (I've read of it).. Either way, as long as that carb is full of gas when you go to stroke it to set the choke, it should light right up when you hit it (all things being right). It'll die shortly thereafter if fuel isn't pumped up to the carb.

It's interesting that you did see that result though.

Totally agree with that.  Theoretically the carb bowl should stay full of gas.   Only thing I could figure is the pump might be having some kind of siphon action on the carb if it starts backflowing.  This is one of those things I really want to take to the next level and disassemble the pump and carb (that I took off) to see how all the check valves/needle & seat work in this particular application.  Only after doing that can I put together some logic for exactly what is going on.  Just need that spare time & round tuit to be able to do that.
 


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/26/2016 2:48 PM  #21


Re: Fuel Draining from Carb - Hard Starting

GPatrick wrote:

Do you have a carb spacer/insulator?  After shutdown, the fuel will tend to evaporate/percolate more quickly if the carb is sitting directly on the manifold. A 1" spacer works well if 1) it is a type that fully seals top and bottom.  I had one that was open on the bottom and it didn't seal on the manifold with the correct gasket; 2) you use the correct longer studs; and 3) you have room to close the hood.

This is GREAT advice.  I installed the Edelbrock Intake/Carb setup on my 65 289 and had the exact problem where the gas would percolate into the engine.  I called Edelbrock to ask why their product would do that.  He asked, "well did you use the fiber spacer under the carb?" as if I'd know it was needed.  I slapped that puppy (the spacer) a'tween the carb and intake and never had another problem..!  I did the same for my 66 289 and have helped other Mustangers with the same.
I'm not saying you might not have other issues, but the Edelbrock 8723 spacer perfectly cleared up the issue..! 
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-8723


Whit & Jenny Boyd
 

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