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11/06/2016 8:20 PM  #1


69 351w pistons

Hi guys, I am new here and was looking for some insight from those who had more experience with the 69 windsor blocks. Now don't ban me right away but I am dropping this 69 351w into my 84 mustang. I bought it in 86 and have had it ever since. I know this is more of the 60's stangs but I do see where some of you update your rides with newer hardware. I found this old 69 351w and rescued it. And in my case an older but stouter block going in my fox body.



I spend most of my time over at 4eyedpride but I came across mustang steves some time ago and figured this might be a place to get some good insight as to direction with my build.


So here is my dilemma:
freshened and worked the block so it is now;
4.04 bore, deck 9.462, I plan to stay with the 3.5 stroke as I have the crank and just had it cleaned up. Have 58cc windsor jrs. going on it.

Looking for pistons that will get me around 10.1/10.5 :1 CR. The old pin height was around 1.75 and the newer pistons are 1.77. Did some math and with a -15cc dish KB piston at 1.774 I am .018 out of the hole (above deck).

The old slugs have me around .006 in the hole (practically zero deck). But with 58cc heads I expect the CR will push past 11.3:1 and it is not my preference to drop those old school slugs in if I can help it.

So what are you doing to address this issue when you rebuild your 69's? Are you going with xtra thick gaskets? Have you gotten high dollar pistons milled? What kind of quench are you finding works well and is safe?

 

11/06/2016 9:59 PM  #2


Re: 69 351w pistons

Welcome retro 25!
I just luuuuv to follow build threads!!
Now I don't have a 351 butt............I do sleep at Holiday Inn occasionally.
I think we need a little more info on your build.
IF its to be a street piece 11.3:1 cr will need a BIG cam to bleed off some low RPM compression and prolly some octane booster too!
Either of your suggestions(thick gaskets and/or milling the top of the pistons) should get the CR down to more streetable figures. Also....those Windsor jr. heads are.....OK (I know I have some on my 5.0) butt what about doing a little "relieving/porting/polishing/smoothing/de-shrouding/whatever" on them.
I'm not great at math butt.......somebody could tell you how much needs to be removed from the chambers to get the CR down to a more manageable level.
Anything over 10:1 would make my butt pinch up though!!
I mean...running it that close means the tune had better be right on to avoid detonation damage.
A long duration cam with a pretty tight LSA will go along way in running big CR on the street butt there is a limit to what will work with pump gas.
Let us know what happens!
6sally6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/07/2016 12:30 AM  #3


Re: 69 351w pistons

Usually, running thick head gaskets help make things ping, and can have sealing problems if you use power adders like nitrous or some kind of blower/turbo.

If you haven't bought the new pistons yet, check out Mahle, Wiseco, and Probe.  All of those companies make pretty good slugs, and will have something to meet your needs.

Thick head gaskets are kind of a stop-gap solution to the problem.  Thicker gaskets means more gasket surface area for pressure to push against, so it can lead to sealing problems.  It also messes with quench, and can cause detonation issues, making an already ping-prone engine have even MORE problems, despite dropping the compression ratio.  It all depends on your build.

If you're using power-adders like nitrous or a blower, go with forged pistons.  They are more forgiving, and will fail gradually instead of all at once, giving you a chance to fix tuning mistakes.  The trade off is that they are heavier (bad) and they expand at a different rate from your cylinders.  This means that when they're cold, they'll usually slap a little.  Still, good quality forged pistons aren't a big deal for Fords.  The 5.0 HO motors even came stock with them, originally.

If you're not using power adders, hypereutectic pistons are much lighter, and can offer you better long-term longevity.  That's partly because their low weight stresses bearings and pins less, but also because their rate of expansion better matches the cylinders, allowing closer tolerances, even when cold.

If you want to compare apples to apples, Hyper pistons and Forged pistons will fail at about the same point, when they're being mistreated.  The difference is that the Hypers tend to shatter when pushed past their limits, failing spectacularly, while Forged pistons usually deform and fail gradually instead of all at once.  Sort of the difference between a bullet hitting cast iron, vs. steel.  A round that doesn't penetrate steel will still leave a dent, causing damage, while the same round hitting cast iron will usually shatter it.

Either way, if you push things too hard, serious ping will mess your stuff up, especially with power adders.

You'd be way better off getting pistons to match your heads, so you don't have to run 'unobtanium' racing or av-gas to go places.  Using a big cam to help with dynamic compression (like Sal says!) is another way to help things out, but if you're running an automatic, or want good gas mileage, that may not be the best choice either.

If you just want a vicious weekender/dragstrip terror, then throw the old slugs in and put in a nasty new bumpstick. =)

It all depends on what you want to use the car for, in the end.  Figure out that part first, and buy parts to suit.

Nice to have you here, Retro!

 


"Whatever you are, be a good one." - Abraham Lincoln
 

11/07/2016 9:04 AM  #4


Re: 69 351w pistons

Sally and Techno thanks for weighing in.

Appreciate your observations. This build is strictly for the street and NA. My intent is to build a strong reliable engine that wont be spun more than 6500rpm. I already had my t5 rebuilt and the rear is an 8.8 with 3.73s. In the old days my 84 came stock with the 7.5. I blew through 3 of those with the mild mods I did to the 302 (but I rode her hard in those days). I am basically resurrecting my old 5.0 (but with a 5.8 instead) to enjoy. Strong torque and a good powerband will make me happy. 

As to the pistons. I mentioned the Keith Black's as they are the hyper's. That is the direction I lean at the moment but I have concerns Techno as you mentioned. Crazy thick gaskets don't thrill me.

     Thread Starter
 

11/07/2016 8:11 PM  #5


Re: 69 351w pistons

On my 351W build, I ran negative deck height with a compressed gasket thickness of 0.042".  I used a 9.50 deck height with the later model pistons to create that combination without having to machine anything other than valve pockets.  I must be getting old because I cannot remember the exact amount the pistons stuck out of the block.  I think is was about 0.005", which really helped keep it from pinging and picked up a few extra HP due to the extra squish tightness.  Ernest is still running that same engine and that buildup was in 1998 as I recall!.  That engine never used a drop of oil.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

Board footera


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