FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

2/01/2018 1:01 PM  #26


Re: Replacement Truck

Modern engines have the capability to give us both to some extent. Like most, I spend a lot of time puttsing around not wanting to shift too much. But then I hit the city limits and everything changes......give me a lower gear, open exhaust, and lots of revs!!!  When you get close to the braking point and the car is still pulling, it is a wonderful thing.

 

2/01/2018 1:40 PM  #27


Re: Replacement Truck

Kar wrote:

The last generation 300 (4.9) vs the 96 F150 302 (5.0)
300: 
150hp @ 3400 rpm
260tq @ 2000 rpm

302:
195hp @ 3800 rpm
270tq @ 2400 rpm

That 400 lower rpm makes the 300 feel so much stronger, the torque is all there sooner and closer to the rpm you spend all your time at. That's why I've always said if we would build our V8's for how we really drive and enjoy them instead of how we think we will drive (6000 rpm) them, we would be much happier with our engine builds. The older I get the more I want tons of torque down low, and a smooth idle.

Agreed... which is why if I were to go to the trouble of swapping I'd go 351w instead of 302... though now that I look at the numbers it's still probably not worth it. 

351w
210 hp @ 3800 rpm
315 ft/lb @ 2800 rpm
 

 

2/01/2018 3:07 PM  #28


Re: Replacement Truck

Those are also published numbers.  If your I6 out torqued your V8 you would never admit it, because what's the incentive for a customer to pay the additional cost of the V8 if the I6 is just as powerful? 

Car companies play those games all the time.  The Corvette is always rated at more power than the Camaro, even though they have the exact same engine.  GM will claim that the Corvette has better breathing and/or exhaust, yet in the real world on a dyno they make exactly the same power.  Its just a marketing ploy.  The top dog has to be the top dog in power too, even if its just 15-20 more HP they get by underrating the Camaro. 

Modern engines are doing some amazing things.  The ability to adjust cam timing allows an engine to have good bottom end AND good top end.  You get into turbos, etc. you can make a small engine very powerful while still having a flat torque curve.  Cylinder deactivation allows V8s to get 25mpg on the highway if you keep your foot out of it, etc.  Saab even had a design years ago that had a variable compression ratio.  Crazy idea, but in the end I think the ability to adjust compression is more easily accomplished by putting a turbo or turbos on a low compression engine and tuning the boost curve accordingly.  An electronically controllable wastegate basically gives you variable compression. 

 

2/01/2018 3:49 PM  #29


Re: Replacement Truck

I over the years had three different motors in my 66, all of which I built.
First:
a 89 model 5.0 long block (302), stock rebuild, Ford E cam, 1.7 rockers, long tube headers, 600 cfm carb, and a 3.80 rear gear, and T-5 (2.95). The car had nice throttle response and was reliable and made decent usable power.

Second:
a 80's model 351w long block, with a stroker crank and better forged pistons, .030 over bore (393 ci, and 10.5 compression), roller cam conversion, AFR 185's, about .580 lift, long tubes, and a 750 cfm carb. seemed to make great power on the upper end 5000-5500 rpm, didn't seem to respond well off idle, hard to keep cool.

Third:
An 80's model 351 long block with the AFR heads, roller cam w/.540 lift, 9.0-1 compression, JBA mid length headers, 650 cfm carb. Ran and idled great, very flat power curve, never ran hot, tons of seat of the pants grunt.

They all had the T-5 with 3.80 rear gear and 2.95 first gear.

I guess what I'm saying is I defiantly think the 351 is worth the extra effort over to 302 for the torque you pick up. I also think the 351 with a well chosen cam and smaller carb makes for all the motor you need in a 65-70 mustang unless you have a lot of other wok done to the car, so it can make use of it. The 351 MS had in his car originally was the basis for the last motor I had in my 66, and I think it was perfect.

     Thread Starter
 

2/01/2018 4:06 PM  #30


Re: Replacement Truck

Consider the first gen Lightning as well.  351 with GT40 heads and intake.  Speed density EFI and a peanut cam (flat tappet for God's sake).  To drive it you thought it was stupid fast even though it had no top end.  A cam swap could pick it up like 75HP, but I would guess it might actually feel slower because you'd lose so much of that seat of the pants off the line grunt by moving the powerband up. 

Its why seat of the pants means nothing.  For years I heard guys say stuff like "I could tell that air filter made a difference because I could feel it.".  When I started racing I found out how bogus all that was.  My fastest runs often felt the slowest.  Why?  Simple, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.  A fast run isn't a tire spinning, getting sideways out of the groove, hairy experience.  A fast run is cutting a great 60' and not missing a shift.  Power's no different.  Torque is what you feel, and where that torque is affects what you perceive as fast.  By moving the torque curve up or down you can make a car feel faster or slower without actually adding or subtracting power, though as you move the curve up due to how HP is calculated you will see an increase in HP, even in a car that may well feel slower.  Bench racing's always fun, but in the end dynos and dragstrips don't lie. 

 

2/01/2018 4:17 PM  #31


Re: Replacement Truck

I love my 300 for it's reliability and low-end torque, but it just doesn't accelerate like a V8.

 

2/01/2018 4:41 PM  #32


Re: Replacement Truck

Its too heavy to.  Those engines have long, heavy con rods, and consequently a lot of weight on the crank to balance it all.  Heavy internals don't spin up fast.  Its as simple as that. 

 

2/01/2018 6:28 PM  #33


Re: Replacement Truck

So is the rotating assembly why an I6 is as heavy as a 351w?


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/01/2018 7:44 PM  #34


Re: Replacement Truck

In part, sure.  The block is also quite heavy because a 300 has a 10" deck height compared to a 302's 8.2" (even a 351 is only 9.2 or 9.5" depending on the year).  The 300 has more main bearings and thus more main webs (7 vs. 5).  In general, the 300 is built for durability and reliability, and heavier parts tend to be more robust and thus both more durable and reliable.  The V8s were used in cars as well as trucks, so weight was always a factor in their design. 

 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.