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2/21/2018 1:16 PM  #26


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Steve, you say you are replacing the clutch too, what clutch are you running behind that 427?

 

2/21/2018 3:32 PM  #27


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I have a Centerforce dual friction clutch. It would probably be ok to reuse, but it has burned some spots on the fyywheel, with one area being pretty rough.  And some gauled up places on one side of the clutch disc.

I was on the Summit site last night.  They have revised their search stuff and I could not locate the same clutch again.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/21/2018 4:58 PM  #28


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

GPatrick wrote:

Last, the contact pressure from the point contact of a ball versus a roller would be huge and no cam would survive.  It all boils down to pounds per square inch and with point contact from a ball, the square inches is really small.  When you take the same load and spread it across the width of the roller, the cam, with good material, can survive....

Great point.  I hadn't thought about it like.  I figured there was some reason why it wasn't feasible or someone would've done it by now.

 

2/21/2018 5:31 PM  #29


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

The only reason lifters need to rotate is that they are flat tappet, otherwise your pistons would rotate too.

 

2/21/2018 6:13 PM  #30


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Michael H. wrote:

GPatrick wrote:

Last, the contact pressure from the point contact of a ball versus a roller would be huge and no cam would survive.  It all boils down to pounds per square inch and with point contact from a ball, the square inches is really small.  When you take the same load and spread it across the width of the roller, the cam, with good material, can survive....

Great point.  I hadn't thought about it like.  I figured there was some reason why it wasn't feasible or someone would've done it by now.

The really "bullet-proof roller lifters" are the ones with a bushing roller(no needle bearings). Not only high performance butt hi dollar as well. No hydraulic available....just solid roller.
6s6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/21/2018 10:53 PM  #31


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Really sorry about what happened.  What makes you think that it may be a result of the rear main seal leak additive?

MS wrote:


Lifter pieces were in the pan.  The lifter had to be driven out top-down after removing the camshaft.  Lots more pieces still in the pan that haven't been cleaned out yet.  This used to be a ROLLER lifter, folks.


Two lobes on the camshaft were wiped out.  This is a billet steel roller cam.  Looks like the second lobe was collateral damage from the lifter coming apart.


This is the bottom of the lifter bore from the trashed lifter.


This is the bottom of the lifter bore on the other side of the block. but on the adjacent camshaft lobe.

I believe the Dart aluminum block can be salvaged by simply cleaning up the bottom of the two lifter bores and making sure the new lifters slide easily in the bores.  Then I have to thoroughly clean everything.  I will install a new oil pump and check the oil thoroughly for small specks of metal. So far, I have not seen any.  The pieces have been LARGE pieces, so hopefully I can get everything clean.  If I find any metal in the oil pump, then I will have to 100% disassemble and clean all parts and passages.   The fact that this occurred at idle speed and was not driven on the road makes me more confident there is not a lot of ground up metal in the engine.

WHY? did this happen?  Who knows... BUT, the residue in the oil pan looked like something I have never seen before.  Kind of like some darker thicker runs in the cleaner oil residue.  I am thinking this may be a result of using that rear main seal treatment.  It did stop the rear main seal from leaking, but did it destroy my engine?  If you used that stuff, I would get it out of there ASAP. 

Now, I need to order a new cam and set of lifters, plus a new clutch and oil pump.  I am wondering if I can use stock Ford roller lifters in the Dart aluminum block.  These COMP CAMS lifters sure did not work out for me.  They have right at 12,000 miles on them.

Yeah, I know... I had better clean out the entire engine to be sure this won't happen again soon.

 


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

2/23/2018 10:27 PM  #32


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Strange residue in the pan that I have never seen before. The sealer may have nothing to do with the busted lifter, but it sure did not look like normal oil.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/24/2018 9:33 AM  #33


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

MS the rear seal sealer may have screwed with the viscosity and performance of the engine oil in multiple ways...I am running Morel Billet rollers in my Cleveland...they recommend 5W30 to insure the oil gets everywhere....Sorry to here this happened....Pulling the engine and boiling it or not??? is a crap shoot...maybe pull the trans and then all the plugs in the engine blocks oiling system
and Flush it out ?? NO...pull the engine and BOIL it, replace what makes sense...soak the new seals in sealant stop leak a week before installing them.... jmho.......jj

Last edited by jerseyjoe (2/24/2018 9:36 AM)


"Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
 

2/24/2018 9:17 PM  #34


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I feel confident I got all debris out of the engine. As soon as parts get here, it is going back together.
When we had the bash in Colorado, I changed from 10-30 oil to 50 wt for the summer trip. Probably a big mistake on my part. When I got home from the 4,000 mile trip, the rear main was leaking. I put the sealer in it, the leak stopped, and I put 10-30 back in. All other lifters looked fine, but that one just disintegrated.
Looking forward now. It will be fine.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/24/2018 10:34 PM  #35


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Sounds to me that based on everything you've posted that the lifters just failed due to a manufacturing defect.  I doubt the rear main seal additive or the switch to 50W had anything to do with it.    I'd put some of those neodymium magnets in the pan before re-installing just in case.   Here is a link to some that are manufactured to withstand the extra heat: 
https://www.magnet4sale.com/n35uh-2x1x3-8-neodymium-rare-earth-oil-pan-magnet/
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

2/25/2018 9:12 AM  #36


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

We’re you using Dino or synth  oil after break in?

Last edited by Rudi (2/25/2018 9:17 AM)


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

2/25/2018 3:56 PM  #37


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I may have missed part of this what kept the lifters form turning ? Is it possible one them separated allowing lifter to turn and jam, Wasn't sure if it was a dog bone or lifters were tied together. 


If its worth doing do it right !
 

2/25/2018 6:19 PM  #38


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I believe Steve said they are Ford type dogbone lifters.

BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

2/25/2018 6:40 PM  #39


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Any debris would be from grinding the bottom of the lifter bore, so magnet won’t pick that up. I do have a magnetic drain plug that has some parts of the lifter stuck to it.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/25/2018 8:12 PM  #40


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Steve, when you swapped in the 50w what did it do to your oil pressure?

Also (and I know it won't catch non-ferrous), but maybe put a big magnet on your oil filter too.

 

2/26/2018 9:47 PM  #41


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Oil pressure went up with thicker oil.
I did not find any debris or particles in the oil when I disassembled the oil pump. I ordered a new M83HV pump ( same as old one). Just because it is cheap insurance.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/27/2018 4:55 PM  #42


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

If all your clearances are right no need to use that high volume pump.

 

2/27/2018 8:03 PM  #43


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

When I was researching distributor gears for my current build a lot of good sources say HV pumps put a lot of strain on the dist gear resulting in premature failure.

 

 

2/27/2018 8:14 PM  #44


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I always run the HV pumps since I always run a little more bearing clearance to get more flow across the bearings which cools them better and lets me say I have never lost one! And oh Yeah, I get less bearing drag which means more umph out the business end of the crank!

Last edited by DC (2/27/2018 8:15 PM)

 

2/27/2018 8:27 PM  #45


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Every engine I ever built got a HV pump.  NEVER have seen any wear on gears.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

2/27/2018 8:45 PM  #46


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

MS wrote:

Every engine I ever built got a HV pump. NEVER have seen any wear on gears.

Same, but like I said when I was researching distributor drive gears I came across several recommendations to run a reg volume pump. BUTT™ it's also why I asked about the 50w.

Transparency, my FordStrokers long block has a HV pump
 

 

2/27/2018 10:32 PM  #47


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

I'm shocked!!!!!!!
MS of all people....using ANYTHING other than a standard volume oil pump!
EVERYTHING I've ever read or "heard" states SBF engines have excellent oiling systems and do not need HV or HP pumps.( I know I just use the std. pressure Mellings.) 
 At the very least....use a heavy duty distrib. shaft.
You do know Mellings has a "better" oil pump than their standard OE replacement oil pump?!
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/28/2018 7:58 AM  #48


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

6sally6 wrote:

I'm shocked!!!!!!!
MS of all people....using ANYTHING other than a standard volume oil pump!
EVERYTHING I've ever read or "heard" states SBF engines have excellent oiling systems and do not need HV or HP pumps.( I know I just use the std. pressure Mellings.) 
 At the very least....use a heavy duty distrib. shaft.
You do know Mellings has a "better" oil pump than their standard OE replacement oil pump?!
6s6

 
Yup. I’ve always been under the impression that the other determining factor is bearing clearances and that for factory clearances you want a standard volume pump, but for looser clearances you want a high volume pump.

And then there is the other issue of potentially flooding out the valve covers and intake valve seals with oil if you haven’t increased the size of the oil drain back holes in the heads to accommodate the additional volume of oil being pumped up there.

 

2/28/2018 8:27 AM  #49


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Don't forget that spinning the HV pump takes more power too. 

SBFs have a great oiling system, if anything it already moves too much oil.  A HV pump really just sucks the pan dry to fill the rocker boxes with oil.

HV pumps are a solution in search of a problem.  I've yet to use one in any engine build I've ever done across multiple makes and I've never had a problem with oiling.  If you're in a situation where you're having oiling issues in racing you are better to just go to a dry sump if class rules allow.  Once you get into heavy G-loading a wet sump system just isn't going to cut it.  There's all manner of trickery employed to try and get them to work, but its lipstick on a pig.  In those situations you need to oil precisely and get the oil off the rotating parts to prevent aeration.  Total overkill for a street engine and all but the most serious street/strip applications though. 

 

2/28/2018 9:04 AM  #50


Re: 427 Stroker carnage from lifter failure

Well, it’s settled then, MS has to order a new pump!

 

Board footera


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