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I usually find that I get better response out of the 600 or 650 but to get the push when you hit the throttle, I need the bigger accelerator pump which I think is 50 cc. I then play with the accelerator pump cams to get the shot just right. You may also need to look at the power valve.
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Ok Folks, I've read everything here but I also tackeld my timing, all over again, before some of these messages came through.
I SEVERELY struggled to find on YouTube or any literature describing precisely how to adjust timing with vacuum advance. Everyone starts by saying removing the vacuum hose, but afterwards it gets vague. Found one response in a forum where only 1 person described each step clearly and why.
So I rechecked TDC and it's nearly spot on, removed vacuum, found 0 advance (the car stalled). Started then with 10deg idle, refer to 2500rpm and gave it 34deg.
After installing vacuum, it's now in maybe the 50's. Is that normally!!!???? Seems high
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Incase that wasn't clear, total mechanical as of now at 2500 rpm is 34deg.
Once i place the vacuum back at 2500rpm it's reads well over the 40 mark on the balancer. Going to say around 50deg for sure.
Which confuses me cause from this forum I was under the impression vacuum advance was most functional at idle or lower RPM, unless wanting total timing with vacuum at 2500-3000rpm is considered low??
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Its functional at idle if you connect it to manifold vacuum. There's always vacuum at the manifold vacuum outlet on the carb, or if its connected to a carb spacer or the manifold. If the port is below the throttle blades; its got vacuum all the time. In which case, yes, your reading would be considered normal.
The other option is to connect it to timed or ported manifold vacuum, which is above the throttle blades. There is only vacuum there once the blades open. There's all kinds of theories about which is best. Some say timed vacuum is only for emissions, etc. In my experience its just another tuning tool. Switch it around and see which way the engine likes it. Mine is actually connected to the timed port. It idles and runs better like that.
As far as tuning the vacuum advance, get the mehcanical advance curve sorted first. I would dial the vacuum advance all the way back (least advance possible). Once you're happy with the mechanical advance curve start adding vacuum advance in like 1/4 to 1/2 turn increments until the engine pings going up a steep hill in high gear. Then back it off 1/2 turn and you're done.
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Ok thanks Everyone for helping to iron out these wrinkles and explaining all this nicely.
I do have another big thing I need clearing up......So I have an MSD Dist. with Vac.Adv. on my modified 351 ( performer heads and intake, mild lift roller cam, holley 650 DP 71/73 jets, bored 40 over...)
I purchased the Distributor Spring and Cam kit for Timing....I started by swapping the springs to both with the LIGHTEST SPRING SET attempting to bring my curve sooner....I also placed the BLACK bushing to reduce/control total timing (in case it was flying past the 50's) with the intention I could possibly increase mechanical across the board, vs. having only Vac. Adv at a specific time/condition being the highest.
I noticed Pinging under lower RPM while attempting to increase Engine Load (or demand)......I went from 35 total mechanical to 40 after swapping the springs and bushing.....Can anyone verify my theory that total advance is arriving too soon causing pinging????
many thanks,
Jeff
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I think you need to limit your total mechanical advance to 36 - 38 degrees total. You can do that by reducing initial timing or by using a bushing to limit mechanical advance.
As to whether your mechanical advance is coming in too soon... To answer that we would need to know at what RPM your mechanical advance is all in.
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This might make it simpler to understand!
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You have too much advance. With aftermarket heads and reasonable compression you should never need ore than 36 degrees total timing. You are changing too many variables at once. Change either springs, or bushings. When changing both you don't know what it was that had what affect. Timing lead is a measure of inefficiency. Stock, low compression engines will need a lot of spark lead. Aftermarket heads and more compression need less. I would start by returning to the bushing you started with. Check total advance and at what RPM. If its more than 36 you need to either reduce base timing or change bushings to reduce mechanical advance. Then test drive and check for pings. If it pings I would back off base timing in 2 degree increments until it stops. If you get to less than 32 and it still pings try a stiffer set of advance springs. At that point I would say its all in too soon. It may take some adjusting, but you need to understand what each change does so you can continually improve the situation.
As in carb tuning, you wouldn't change jets, step up springs, and accelerator pump setting all at the same time. You make one change, see how it responds and then go further, or backwards if it got worse.
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TKO
Thank you very much for your feedback and lengthy responses. You're knowledge is appreciated.
But I seem to get different information from different sources. It's kind of frustrating.
Some literature says to get initial timing + mechanical set to '36deg' then install vacuum advance. I follow that method and total is over 50deg for me and was assured that is normal.
If I understood your last write up properly, it's saying Total with vacuum needs to be set to 36deg. (obv give or take).
Before revisiting all this with my car it was set to over 50deg with Vacuum Advance and it ran strong with no pinging. Which is the correct way to set timing??????
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Also, is this kind of pitting or deteriaration of the rotor and cap normal, or is it a sign of something else electrically wrong?
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M1Mustang69 wrote:
TKO
Thank you very much for your feedback and lengthy responses. You're knowledge is appreciated.
But I seem to get different information from different sources. It's kind of frustrating.
Some literature says to get initial timing + mechanical set to '36deg' then install vacuum advance. I follow that method and total is over 50deg for me and was assured that is normal.
If I understood your last write up properly, it's saying Total with vacuum needs to be set to 36deg. (obv give or take).
Before revisiting all this with my car it was set to over 50deg with Vacuum Advance and it ran strong with no pinging. Which is the correct way to set timing??????
You aren't understanding the difference between mechanical and total advance with vacuum. Ignore vacuum. Disconnect it and plug the port. Measure advance at idle (base timing). Measure advance at 2,000-3,000 RPM, until you stop seeing additional advance (e.g. 36 degrees at 3,000 and stops increasing). This is total mechanical advance, and should not exceed 32-36 degrees. If this setting causes pining you need to start backing off base timing (rotating the distributor counterclockwise) to remove 2 degrees at a time until the pinging goes away.
Only once that is done and correct do you add vacuum advance to the equation. If you connect the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum (vacuum all the time) you will read much more timing, even at idle. The other option may be ported vacuum (vacuum only once the throttle blades start to open), which won't affect idle timing, but will affect timing at every other RPM.
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Ok Perfect TKO thats how I did it after finding that one forum post on a different site....I all checks out perfectly...
NEWEST OBSERVATIONS which could use the expertise of you guys.....
St around 6000RPM, the car "falls on its -oh no I used a word I shouldn't have-" and what I mean by that is, pulls strong and great like always (to be entirely honest the power band feeling does feel less on the whole compared to prior ignition/carb settings) but at around 6000RPM it physically and literally drops off....you can feel a drastic drop in power...
This Never happened at all, prior to : Reducing TOTAL VAC ADV with the new bushing set (i have a limit of 21deg right now) and my Spring Config is Lightest Silver and Blue!.
prior to these changes the car literally never felt like it wanted to Stop Pulling! all gears regardless or RPM she was a STRONG Force through and through, observed by many drivers....
given these details, would anyone know what the likely cause of this is from the changes made :
1)total vacadvance with the bushing is too low?
2)VAC Adv Spring Config?
the car has never been starved of fuel regardless of Jet Sizes or bowel setting (which havent changed).
many thanks,
Jeff
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I don't see how vacuum advance has anything to do with performance at 6,000 RPM. Running essentially wide open the engine isn't making any vacuum, and thus the vacuum advance is a non issue. Take a vacuum reading at anything much above idle and you'll see what I mean. As the throttle blades open there's progressively less to build a vacuum against.
What kind of distributor/ignition system is in the car?
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MSD 8478 Distrib 6AL Box
My Vac Adv is hooked up to the Carb Port, not the manifold....
I guess with this logic on Vacuum, the Limmiter Bushing is the culprit!?
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You're saying that the total advance is 21 degrees? If total advance is 21 degrees then, yes, without doubt that's your problem.
Where vacuum advance is connected doesn't matter. The only difference between manifold vacuum, which is vacuum anywhere below the throttle blades (carbs often have a port that is below the throttle blades), and timed or ported vacuum (above the throttle blades) is whether or not the vacuum advance is active at idle or not. Once you are off idle there is effectively no difference.
Out of curiosity, what chip is in the 6AL?
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incorrect tko.....Im am using the 21DEG Bushing in the MSD distrib. which means it only allows an additional 21Deg max....I can swap out the bushing and the increments vary from 18deg right to 32 I believe....
my Limitter was not changed during any of this, therefor I know its not the culprit...but it is set to 7000....
the power drop off is not the same as when I used to hit my Limiter....I would describe the limiter was more of a Sputter, it would stay at and around the limited RPM, this drop is like a drastic power drop once said RPM is reached; the hood drops and all
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I had to research the MSD distributor to see exactly how they work. Effectively the bushings limit the centrifugal (mechanical) advance. So at 21 degrees I'm assuming its the blue bushing. What one was in it originally? How many degrees of base timing? What RPM is total advance achieved?
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