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7/11/2018 4:39 PM  #26


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Huskinhano wrote:

Are you using a repro block plate? The last two I used I had issues with. The first one I couldn’t even get the starter in. The last time was recently when I put my GT40P in my 66. The starter made horrible noises. Both block plates I had to enlarge the opening while on the car otherwise I would have had to pull the trans and flywheel. I’ll bet that is the problem, not the starter.

A word of warning. Check the block plate with a bellhousing on the engine before putting it in the car.

Yeah, the repro ones I've seen are pretty bad.  You can actually buy new ones from Ford.  More expensive, but IMO well worth it.  One of my starter shims may or may not have started as a repro block plate I bought and was unhappy with...

Last edited by TKOPerformance (7/14/2018 7:57 AM)

 

7/13/2018 5:06 AM  #27


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Well tried the auto starter last night and same issue

I guess it's time to pull the trans to have a look at the flywheel to verify it's a 157

Might upgrade while the trans is out

Thanks for the help


66 Fastback, 67 Bronco U14 - Flower Mound Texas
     Thread Starter
 

7/13/2018 7:12 AM  #28


Re: T5 Swap starter question

I’m not trying to add fuel to the fire but originally a 66 would use a 157 tooth flywheel. You would use the same starter for both automatic and manual transmission. This starter is for what ever reason labeled as the automatic starter. In 68 Ford used a larger diameter flywheel at least in the stick shift cars. This flywheel is 164 tooth. I don’t know honestly what size the flexplate is in the automatic cars, 157 or 164 tooth. But anyway on the stick shift cars with the 164 tooth, it used a different starter then the 66 cars. This starter is referred to as the manual starter. So the problem now is in the 65 to 67 stick shift cars which actually have a 157 tooth flywheel that uses the so called automatic starter are now sold the manual starter designed for the larger 164 tooth flywheel and doesn’t work.

The difference between the two starters is not the tooth count on the starter drive, both have the same number of teeth which if I remember right are 11 teeth. The difference is how far the starter drive protrudes. On the 157 tooth manual flywheel there is about a 3/8” set back of the ring gear to the engine side of the flywheel. On the larger 164 tooth manual flywheel the ring gear is flush with the engine side of the flywheel. That difference is made up in the starter. The so called 157 tooth automatic starter drive protrudes 3/8” more. If you install the manual 164 tooth flywheel on a 157 tooth manual flywheel, it’ll never engage. It’ll just free spin. If you install a 157 tooth automatic starter on a 164 tooth manual flywheel, it’s too deep and it’s going to grind. I honestly don’t know if it’ll even engage. When I converted my 66 from automatic to 4 speed I went through this. I bought a manual starter from DB electrical and it just spun, never engaged. I bought it off eBay. I called DB and they explained what was going on and swapped me the correct 157 tooth automatic starter which did work fine.  A popular swap is to use the PMGR starter from the 90’s 5.0 Mustang T5 which uses a 157 tooth flywheel but balanced to 50 oz, into vintage Mustangs with 157 tooth flywheels and they work just fine. Apparently Ford got their act together and used the same 157 tooth starter size in all applications. The mid 90’s V6 T5 Mustangs used a larger 164 tooth flywheel then the 157 tooth 5.0 T5 but both use the same starter and this starter will work in your 66 with a 157 tooth flywheel. If you put a vintage 157 tooth manual flywheel next to a 157 tooth 5.0, T5 manual flywheel to the unfamiliar they will look identical. The only difference is a larger balance weight cast on the back side of the T5 flywheel and different pressure plate bolt pattern. Other then that, they are basically the same. Same number of teeth and same offset of the ring gear and either vintage or PMGR starters will work on each other.

As I said in my previous post if you do have the 157 tooth flywheel and correct starter which will be listed as the automatic starter for a 66 and it still grinds, it’s going to be the block plate. It takes very little mid alignment to cause grinding. The block plate is suppose to correctly align the starter and it’s suppose to be a precision measurement but in the aftermarket world, who knows? I went through this with my 66 2 years ago when I put my GT40P into my 66. I bought a new block plate and flywheel. I had a hard time getting the bolts started in the starter. When I started the car for the first time the noise and grinding were so bad I thought I had ruined a couple teeth on my billet SFI rated flywheel! I pulled the starter out and with a small 90* air grinder and carbide burr bit I slightly opened the block plate. Wasn’t a fun job with the headers and exhaust in place either. But now it works just fine. Post a close up picture of the starter drive and a picture of the back side of the flywheel through the starter opening and we can tell you what’s what.

Also, the bellhousing are different too between a 157 and 164 tooth. The 164 tooth is bigger and locates the starter farther out. Everything must be a matched system. You could install a 164 tooth bellhousing on a 157 tooth flywheel but no combination of starters will work. Nothing will engage. I don’t know if you could even install a 157 tooth bellhousing over a 164 tooth flywheel? If you could I’m sure neither starter would work and you’d be having totally different problems.

Last edited by Huskinhano (7/13/2018 7:39 AM)


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

7/13/2018 8:35 AM  #29


Re: T5 Swap starter question

An auto starter is definitely for a 157 tooth flywheel.  I simply reused my stock starter.  I used an OEM blockplate from an '89 Mustang GT, so as to rule out the blockplate being the issue.  I'm not saying that the blockplate couldn't be the issue, especially if its a repro, but in my case it was not the issue.

No, in my case the starter simply required shimming.  The only non OEM part in my entire setup was the flywheel.  I can only conclude that it was at fault.  I do know that the shims I used completely eliminated the issue and the car starts and runs without any abnormal noise or issue.  So before you go taking the trans back out; try a shim.  If it dfoesn't work you spent like $9 and 20 minutes to find that out.  If it does work you saved yourself a PITA and hours of tail chasing. 

Last edited by TKOPerformance (7/13/2018 3:54 PM)

 

7/13/2018 11:01 AM  #30


Re: T5 Swap starter question

I just found a pdf document in my archives with lots of info about 157 vs 164 teeth flywheels and the appropriate starters.  I don't see a way to post it on here, but I'll be happy to email it to you if you pm me your email address.
 

 

7/14/2018 5:52 AM  #31


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Both starters engaged and spun the engine


66 Fastback, 67 Bronco U14 - Flower Mound Texas
     Thread Starter
 

7/14/2018 8:05 AM  #32


Re: T5 Swap starter question

toms66fback wrote:

Well tried the auto starter last night and same issue

I guess it's time to pull the trans to have a look at the flywheel to verify it's a 157

Might upgrade while the trans is out

Thanks for the help

I missed this the first time, the Fox bellhousing will only fit a 157 tooth flywheel.  There's no chance the flywheel is 164 tooth.  The 157 is close to the sides as it is. 
 

 

7/14/2018 8:18 AM  #33


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Got curious about this so I did some digging.  There may have been minor changes, and I can't say that what Ford did in the '60s was the same as what it did in the '80s and '90s, but I can say that the same Motorcraft starter is listed for an '89 Mustang 5.0 with a 157 tooth flywheel and an '89 F150 with a 5.0 and a 164 tooth flywheel.  Both starters are listed as Motorcraft SA734BRM despite the flywheel difference.  The difference therefore is in the bellhousing and where it locates the starter.  The bellhousing for the 164 tooth flywheels are physically wider by about 1/2", and the starter mounting location is moved outwards as a result.  I would suppose that if you put a 157 tooth flywheel in a 164 tooth bellhousing the starter would not even engage.  I would further suppose that if you did the reverse the starter would not be able to be installed because it would hit the flywheel (that is, if the flywheel would even physically fit in the bellhosuing, and I don't think it will). 

So, if your starter engages you have a properly matched flywheel/starter.  If you're getting noise; shim it. 

 

7/14/2018 9:11 PM  #34


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Ford change the ring gear location so one starter fit both. The mid 90’s V6 T5 used the larger 164 tooth flywheel vs the smaller 157 tooth 5.0. Ford moved the ring gear back to the same off set so both could use the same starter.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

7/15/2018 6:18 AM  #35


Re: T5 Swap starter question

I came across some info about the 3.8 V6, which also had a T5 behind it, and for some odd reason used a 164 tooth flywheel and the larger bellhousing.  Complicating matters is the fact that the 3.8 V6 shares the same bellhousing bolt pattern with the small block.  The flywheels don't interchange from what I've read.  The bolt pattern may be the same, but it seems the 3.8 used a different balance that either of the balances used for the small block.  There were guys trying to cobble stuff together using a truck flywheel and the V6 bellhousing and tans.  Seemed a lot of work to me when Fox T5 setups are easily found and not expensive. 

 

6/19/2019 5:16 PM  #36


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Cobra kit car ? 302 engine ? Are there different block plates depending on the number of teeth on the flywheel or just a different starter that has to be used . Haven't bought a starter yet . 

 

6/19/2019 7:54 PM  #37


Re: T5 Swap starter question

Block plates for 164 have the starter hole 1/2” farther away from the crank centerline than the 157 tooth block plate.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

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