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I could use some troubleshooting suggestions. I have a 65 Mustang running a 351 Windsor and T5 transmission. Back in the spring it began giving me problems stalling as I slow down and brake at intersections. It's like the idle dips too low, sputters, and dies. It seems to be worse if I let the engine drop to idle real fast and get on the brakes fairly firm. I can baby it by staying in gear to slow down, keeping some load on the engine, dropping the rpm's more slowly. Sometimes it still dies but I can usually keep it running that way. My first guess was the carburetor must be gummed up because it sat almost all winter without being ran. After dismantling the carb I don't think it really needed rebuilding...looked plenty clean inside. I rebuilt it anyway and took the opportunity to install larger jets. After a few tweaks to the carb it starts up and idles fine in the driveway, performs fine running down the road, but the stalling issue persists. I've been back thru the carb a second time to make extra sure everything was clean and blown out all passages...no change. I've played with float levels, idle mixture screws, secondary idle set screw, timing....nothing seems to help. I have a MustangSteve power brake set up. I wondered if the booster may have gone bad causing a vacuum leak when braking. I disconnected the booster and plugged the vacuum port and test drove it with no power assist....no change with the stalling issue. I've tried disconnecting the vacuum advance...no change.
Highlights of my setup:
'69 351W block and heads, pretty stock rebuild bored 30 over.
Mild cam, don't remember the specs but it's barely more than stock
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Holley 670 Street Avenger Carb
Edelbrock mechanical fuel pump
Pertronix Flame Thrower Distributor (either Ignitor II or III)
Idle set around 800 rpm
Initial advance set at 10 deg BTDC
T5 transmission
I'm out of ideas. I don't know what else to check or what I'm possibly overlooking. I've fought it so much that I can't analyze it objectively anymore. Any suggestions of things to check would be appreciated.
Last edited by eleanor_350 (8/16/2018 8:52 PM)
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Welcome to THE best place around.
I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will chime in.
All I can come up with is, have you verified you have a functioning vacuum advance system? Seems like in a closed throttle/high vacuum situation is where it should be needed. Checked for vacuum leaks?
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What is your vacuum level at idle?
Are you running a brake booster?
Is the brake booster and the engine fighting over the same vacuum at idle?
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Give it more initial timing(12*/14*) and THEN re-adjust idle speed.,...see if that helps.
Fuel filter clean?
Let us know if this helps.
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I agree with a little more advance. Advance it until it pings on acceleration, then back off until the ping goes away.
This sounds like there could be a vacuum leak somewhere. Did it run correctly before and this issue started on its own without having changed anything?
I believe I have an article in the TIPS section of FYIFORD that deals with the Street Avenger carbs. It was posted a few years ago, so you may have to do a search.
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Thanks for the welcome. I'm a long time visitor to the site...just rarely post so I never have set up a profile on the newer forum. I agree on this being the best place. Let me try to address some of the questions/suggestions in order.
-I think the vacuum advance is working but I'll double check it.
-I checked idle vacuum level early on and I think it was a little over 20". Sound right? I've had the carb off a couple of times since then. I'll check it again this weekend.
-I'll bump up the initial advance a little. I've always been hesitant to get too aggressive with initial advance. I've fought hot start issues with this car for years.
-Just replaced the fuel filter just in case, but haven't had time to test drive it since.
-Yes, MS, this issue seemed to come out of nowhere. Nothing had been changed or tweaked on the engine in a very long time before this started. The only thing I did was replace the steering box earlier this spring. I had to remove the header and jack the engine up to do this. This is a 351w with Hedman swap shorty headers in a 65. The clearance is very tight between the brake booster and the one funky header tube that comes up and over the top. I thought I might have not got the engine rocked back into it's original spot and maybe melted the diaphragm in the booster. But the power brakes work fine and the stalling problem persisted even when I unhooked the booster.
-I'll search for the street avenger article. I bought this carb new when they first came out about 15 years ago because I didn't know a lot about tuning carbs and these were supposed to be pretty good out of the box. It has been relatively trouble free for my street car whether our not it's a top performer. I have read some pretty negative opinions of them recently though.
An older Ford friend suggested the throttle shaft bushings may be worn and causing a vacuum leak. How many miles is a carb typically good for before that should be a concern? I'm guessing I may have somewhere around 15k-20k miles on this one.
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15-20K miles should not wear out the throttle shafts. Plus, Holleys have plastic seals in there. If you have an excessively strong return spring, well, maybe...
You have opened the idle mixture screws up a bit?
To save you having to dig for it, here is a copy of the Avenger issues I have dealt with in the past. Pay special attention to #3.There are 3 problems on the Street Avenger that cause the stumbles and hesitations:
1. Lean Jetting. The S/A carbs are jetted very lean on the primary side, and extremely lean on the secondary side. Bump primary jetting up about 3 jet sizes and then make the secondary jets 8 sizes larger than the resulting primaries. To save a few bucks on jets, take the jets out of the secondary side and install them in the primary, and then just buy a pair of jets for the secondary side. This gets the carb jetted about right and will do wonders for throttle response and power.
2. Accelerator pump lever not touching pump cam. I see this constantly on the S/A carbs, and it's really lousy assembly work at the factory: The accel pump lever that connects between the pump cam and the accel pump arm does not ride on the pump cam at idle. The lever is riding on top of the throttle shaft spring and is not touching the pump cam. Only after you rotate the throttle a bit (with no accel pump action) will the pump cam touch the lever and produce a pump shot. To fix this, remove the lever and bend the lever a little more right where you see the "kick-up" bend in the lever where it's supposed to ride on the cam. By giving the lever more of a bend, the lever will not hit the shaft spring and will ride on the pump cam right where it should. This will produce an instant pump shot off idle, and will solve most of the hesitation/stumble issues associated with these carbs. Keep in mind that you will need to re-adjust the accel pump lash adjustment after you bend the arm.
3. Inadequate secondary idle speed setting. On most S/A carbs, the secondary throttle (idle speed) is fully closed. This causes the primary idle speed setting to get cranked up too far in order to achieve a reasonable idle speed, thus exposing too much of the primary transition slot. This, in turn, will cause an off-idle stumble due to lack of transition fuel enrichment as the throttle is opened. The primary and secondary throttles should be open the same amounts at idle - they should be balanced and see equal airflow. Carb must be inverted in order to change idle speed on the secondaries.
I may have gotten this copy from another source, so I don't take credit for all of it.
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Thank you, Steve. That information sounds familiar from my research on solving this issue. After rebuilding the carb, I've had the idle mixture screws set about 1.5 turns out. I had read about the lean jetting on S/A carbs so I increased the jet size during the rebuild. I think it came with 65's in the primary and 68's in the secondary. I wrote down what I put in there but can't recall from memory...I think I put 70's and 78's in it. I also put the lighter spring in the secondary actuator. That has seemed to wake it up a bit. I also inspected the accelerator pump and made sure the lever was riding on the cam and adjusted the lash on the pump arm. I've also experimented with the secondary idle speed setting. It was fully closed when I disassembled it. I've adjusted the secondary throttle blades so that the slot looks square...barely showing. However, when I've done this I can't get the car to idle below about 1100-1200 rpm...even with the primary idle screw backed all the way down. That points me back to a vacuum leak somewhere letting excess air in. But I can't find one. I've tried the trick of spraying around the base of the carb and vacuum lines with starter fluid and listening for a change in idle....nothing. I have not checked for vacuum leaks after going through the carb a second time. I will try that.
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Opening the secondaries too much will have reduced your idle signal on the primaries and probably worked against you as you observed when you couldn't get it down to idle speed. You may find that the idle responds better when you back it off to the point where they are just slightly open and then adjust from there in small increments. Small changes to this setting and then testing takes a little more time but often provides better results. The system doesn't draw any fuel through the secondaries at idle so if all of the air is going through the secondaries you won't have the fuel to support it. For the most part, jet size doesn't affect your idle mixture. Jumping up jet sizes may be helping your performance under load but is likely not going to help your idle/die issue. The jump you made is quite large so I have concerns that you may be running too rich now. Did you do this in one change or did you you work your way up to these jets?
Are you setting the idle screws to 1-1/2 because you think they should be there or are you using a vacuum gauge and adjusting them for maximum vacuum? Steve suggested opening them up and this is a great test that can give you quick answers. A change of even a eight or quarter turn can have a large impact on how the engine settles down to idle. However, an overly rich idle can also cause a stall so you really need to verify with vacuum where you are and what you need to do and the screws may need to go in rather than out.
A bad PCV valve can sometimes produce this symptom. You can adjust the idle and mixture around it but it will have a potential to die when you let off the gas.
Last, you may be experiencing enough of a voltage drop when you drop down to idle speed to cause it to want to quit due to a weak spark. Check voltage at the battery at idle and at 2000 RPM and then check voltage at the coil for the same conditions to see if your voltage is dropping due to your alternator or regulator. Did you replace the pink wire for the Pertronix? They recommend eliminating the resistor wire for full battery power to the Ignitor. Some may get away with the pink wire but I tend to follow manufacturer's recommendations. Also, you have to match the coil resistance to the particular Pertronix unit you are using. The wrong resistance in the coil may be putting added strain on the Ignitor or your ignition supply wire. If you are overloading the pink wire it may have slowly degraded over time which could cause a slow decline in your idle spark. Easy enough to check and since you have not seen any improvement by flogging on the carb, you may want to look to your spark.
It might be helpful to run a long vacuum hose so that you (or better a passenger) can watch vacuum as you drive to see if it is dropping dramatically under certain throttle settings or conditions.
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I just went through the same exact crap, ended up being the carb was dirty from ethanol gas. I started buying non ethanol fuel for my stang and my lawn equipment and the problem is gone. I've been dealing with it for a year and a half , now it starts better and runs better and quit dying when coming to a stop and it will idle at 800 rpms with no problem
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Would a dashpot help?
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Mark Hone wrote:
Would a dashpot help?
Someone suggested that on another forum. Based on the way it behaves, it would seem reasonable that a dashpot would help. But it's also my understanding that dashpots are typically only used on automatics??? My car is a stick shift if it makes a difference.
I also wanted to thank everyone for the extensive advice. I checked voltage at the battery and the coil and got almost identical readings. I also took the carb apart again, soaked in cleaner, and blew out all passages real good. I backed the jets back down as suggested to 68's in the primary and 76's in the secondary. I ran the car out of gas while readjusting the carb and that's as far as I've got. Life doesn't allow me a lot of play time in the garage. I'll provide some feedback when I finally get this sorted out.
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I agree with Sal. I think you need to advance the timing to about 14 btdc. The way I tune my 289 is to put a vac gage on it and set the timing to achieve max vacuume. Putting a vac gage on it also will give you an indication of a vacuume leak. Also there's always the carb cleaner leak check method. Simple stuff first.
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My car had a dashpot on the factory carb. I never missed it when I swapped on my Edelbrock 500 (1403).
I also don''t think timing would cause this. I drove my car for years with the timing WAY off and it never stalled. It might not run as well, and certainly won't make best power, but stalling on braking? I'm not buying it. BUT, going back through the spark side isn't a bad idea. The hot start issue makes me wonder if something isn't off. Fords are not known for that, and even with my timing WAY off I never had hot start issues. Are you sure that TDC on the balancer is really TDC? Did the balancer and pointer come from the 351 or another engine? Ford used 3 different balancer/pointer combinations with different locations for checking the timing. Mix and match is a quick way to end up with a TDC mark that doesn't correspond to TDC in the engine. You can verify it with a piston stop to be sure. I've found that if the engine has low compression (like 8-8.5:1 with iron heads) and a stock or stockish cam you likely won't even be able to get it to ping, especially on a fairly fresh engine. I like to verify TDC, see what mechanical advance slot is in use, and then figure what I want for total timing. That determines my base setting. If its on the 13 slot let's say that means 26 degrees of mechanical advance, and I want 38, so I set base at 12. The lower the compression and the more stock the engine the more timing its going to want. Timing accounts for inefficiency. A high performance engine might only need 32 degrees, but I've seen stock low performance engines run best beyond 40.
I think you need to start by hooking a vacuum gauge to it and see what happens to that gauge when it stalls. My guess is that the gauge is going to drop fast right before it stalls. This really sounds like a vaccum leak issue, and I'm wondering if its leaking vacuum into the lifter valley on hard deceleration, or sucking enough oil vapor in to dilute the mixture enough to cause the flame to go out. A leak like this is somewhat common on Ford small blocks, and they are hard to diagnose, because if you test with carb cleaner for example you can't find it.
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I wanted to give a status update. A mechanic friend suggested I check my float levels and it turns out he was right. I had them set way too low and I think the primaries were starving for fuel on hard braking. I've raised them up and the stalling is gone. I bought this carburetor new and it came out of the box with see-through sight glasses on the fuel bowls. They've become cloudy over time and I don't think I was getting an accurate reading looking through them. I've replaced them with brass plugs that I remove to check float level now. Thank you to everyone for your input. I'm so relieved to finally be getting somewhere with this. I knew it had to be fairly simple but it's been a challenge to narrow down.
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Gosh!! Such an obvious fix and NONE of us got it!
Glad you got it work'in right.( A bigger camshaft and lotsa timing is my usual answer...butt not this time)
6sally6
PS Welcome to the site BTW.
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eleanor_350 wrote:
[color=#333333] I've played with float levels, idle mixture screws, secondary idle set screw, timing....nothing seems to help. .
Since changing my float levels when I had the same problem fixed my issue, I'd have offered it as a suggestion if you hadn't included it in your original post Sorry it took so long to diagnose. What did you do differently this time as opposed to the first go round?
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I’m going to go out on a limb and say that this time he set them correctly!
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rpm wrote:
Since changing my float levels when I had the same problem fixed my issue, I'd have offered it as a suggestion if you hadn't included it in your original post
Sorry it took so long to diagnose. What did you do differently this time as opposed to the first go round?
I wish I knew. This time I did set the float levels with the site plugs removed. Before I was trying to set them by looking through discolored "see-through" sight plugs. Maybe it was distorting my view??? I can't put a big enough disclaimer on the fact that I'm no carb expert. There was plenty of opportunity along the way for me to think I'm doing right and unwittingly making things worse.
And no apologies necessary. I appreciate all of the input by everyone. I'm just glad to finally get it sorted out so that I can move on to other projects. I self-imposed a requirement on myself to get this fixed before starting any other car-related projects. Relieved to have this one off my plate.
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