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9/28/2018 2:42 PM  #1


Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

351 motor in my '65 has been starting fine since I got it on the road, but yesterday, went to start it and all I got was a "click" when I turned key to start.  The interior lights are real dim and light on the radio is barely lit.  Naturally I thought battery, but battery showed 14.7 volts when I did get running.  I put a charger on it and meter on charger pegged to the negative side and no amp reading at the meter.  After a while, tried it again and car started.  backed car out of garage and shut it off and tried it again and same issue. Interior light read dim and voltmeter on car didn't register voltage.

Cable routing is: battery positive cable goes to a latching relay and then to starter solenoid and then to starter.  The latching relay is a battery disconnect relay that doesn't require constant voltage to operate and thus run the battery down when activated.  It is a mechanical latching relay that receives a ground signal via a momentary switch.

I have a ground wire from battery to motor and from the motor to the frame and have continuity to ground at both places. The thing that puzzles me, is why after it sets a while, it goes back to normal operation. Trouble is, I never know when it is going to leave me setting when I shut off the motor. I don't think it is a heat issue because the first time it did it, the car had been setting for several days before I went to start it.
I don't know what would be the best diagnostic route to approach finding the problem.  Can someone help me with  diagnostics?  Is it possible for starters to lock up and pull excessive amps that way? I never hear a big "clunk" like it is trying to engage.


"when I drop something, it always goes to center of the car"
 

9/28/2018 3:01 PM  #2


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

I would start by confirming that all electrical connections from the battery to the various places are clean and mechanically sound.  This would include the battery terminals, the ground on the engine, those on the strap, engine and frame for the ground between the engine and the frame, those on the latching relay, the starter solenoid and the starter.  Do you also have a ground between the engine block and the firewall?  If not, add one.  If you do, make sure those connections are also clean and have good mechanical connection.

Verify that all the cable ends are firmly attached to the cables.

If that does not help bypass the latching relay and go directly to the solenoid from the battery.

Confirm that you have a Motorcraft solenoid.

Let us know what you find out.
 

Last edited by John Ha (9/28/2018 4:22 PM)


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

9/28/2018 3:56 PM  #3


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

I had a similar issue once.  It turned out to be battery cables that were internally corroded where the connectors were crimped on.

 

9/28/2018 4:08 PM  #4


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Sounds like your battery is low or bad.  Disconnect it from the car and test the voltage.  It should be close to 6.0 volts.  Testing while running only tells you that the alternator works.  Clean the battery terminals and cables too while you are at it.  Bypass the latching key too.  Perform a continuity check on both sets of cables.  Resistance should be very low.


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

9/28/2018 6:31 PM  #5


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Take the battery to Autozone or Oreilly and have it load tested. It is usually the battery in my experience.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

9/28/2018 6:31 PM  #6


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

My WAG is the plug on the firewall.


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

9/29/2018 9:23 PM  #7


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Check the battery connections but I would bypass the latching relay for a while and see what happens. Or doesn’t. Is that latching relay rated for constant duty? Keep in mind you could be exceeding the capability of its contacts when cranking the engine. Basically it needs to be rated for that use.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

10/01/2018 5:53 PM  #8


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Update on my electrical problem:  all the grounds and positive connections removed and checked and have continuity through them all.
Have a ground cable from the motor to the firewall and have continuity there.

Battery checked out and had load test done on it  checked out ok

I don't have a connection plug through the firewall.  I totally rewired the vehicle with a Haywire electrical kit.

The latching relay is rated at 110 amps.  I didn't bypass the latching relay yet.  I want to road test it before I do and see if it is fixed before I do something else.

My next step is to replace the starter.  Thinking maybe the armature is grounding against the poles internally for some reason. 
I will road test tomorrow and see what happens.  Trouble is, it doesn't do it all the time.

Thanks to everyone for the help.  Jerry


"when I drop something, it always goes to center of the car"
     Thread Starter
 

10/01/2018 8:40 PM  #9


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

retired 65 wrote:

Update on my electrical problem:  all the grounds and positive connections removed and checked and have continuity through them all.
Have a ground cable from the motor to the firewall and have continuity there.

Battery checked out and had load test done on it  checked out ok

I don't have a connection plug through the firewall.  I totally rewired the vehicle with a Haywire electrical kit.

The latching relay is rated at 110 amps.  I didn't bypass the latching relay yet.  I want to road test it before I do and see if it is fixed before I do something else.

My next step is to replace the starter.  Thinking maybe the armature is grounding against the poles internally for some reason. 
I will road test tomorrow and see what happens.  Trouble is, it doesn't do it all the time.

Thanks to everyone for the help.  Jerry

I had a similar issue on an 84 F-150. It was a replacement starter that had been on the truck before we bought it. The owner was tired of fighting the problem, so we got the truck at a good price. One of the large screws that held one of the stator windings to the starter housing had loosened up, so the winding was making contact with the armature. It didn't short out, but it caused a drag. Once I removed the starter and retorqued and locktited the screw, it worked like a champ.
 


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

10/02/2018 1:27 PM  #10


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

retired 65 wrote:

Update on my electrical problem:  all the grounds and positive connections removed and checked and have continuity through them all.
Have a ground cable from the motor to the firewall and have continuity there.

Battery checked out and had load test done on it  checked out ok

I don't have a connection plug through the firewall.  I totally rewired the vehicle with a Haywire electrical kit.

The latching relay is rated at 110 amps.  I didn't bypass the latching relay yet.  I want to road test it before I do and see if it is fixed before I do something else.

My next step is to replace the starter.  Thinking maybe the armature is grounding against the poles internally for some reason. 
I will road test tomorrow and see what happens.  Trouble is, it doesn't do it all the time.

Thanks to everyone for the help.  Jerry

You said in your original post that "The interior lights are real dim and light on the radio is barely lit ... and voltmeter on car didn't register voltage"  If you were not trying to make the starter spin when these symptoms were present then it seems more likely that the issue is in something else, unless you have a starter that is wired directly to battery.  I would still try to bypass the latching relay first, since it is in the line of supply to every other electrical device in the car.


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

10/03/2018 5:31 PM  #11


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Clean your ground. Continuity  check is one thing but amperage transfer is something else.

 

10/06/2018 7:53 AM  #12


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Load test the battery like Steve said.


Mustang Steve Bash in Gruene, Texas September29-30, 2023
 

10/07/2018 9:18 PM  #13


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

Update:  I did clean all the grounds plus the battery cable pos. cables and load tested the battery.  In the process of doing this, I ran across something else that could be the problem, but since I did several things at once, not sure what fixed it.  Anyway, I haven't had a problem since I did all those.  Sometime during all the road tests, apparently the main 12v feed line from the batt. to the ignition box got over into the fan blade and cut some of the insulation off the wire and exposed the wire to the fan blade tips.  I have a mechanical fan blade.  I surmise at shut-off of the motor, one of the blade tips rested against the open wire for the 12v feed to the ign. box and made a direct short.  Thus the dim lights, the pegging out of the voltmeter.  That's what I suspected from the start, but couldn't prove it until I saw that wire.  It seems unlikely that the problem would occur very often with that wire touching the blade tip, but I fixed the wire and got everything buttoned down and haven't had another re-occurance.
Thanks to everyone for the help.  Jerry


"when I drop something, it always goes to center of the car"
     Thread Starter
 

10/08/2018 5:21 AM  #14


Re: Need diagnostic help with an electrical problem.

That’s quite possible. I’m a electrician and I’ve seen stuff that if I hadn’t witnessed it myself I would have doubted was the problem. A coworker of mine years ago was a fire inspector. He said one day he walked into his living room and saw smoke coming from either a sofa or table. He said his wife had a crystal hanging in the window. The sun was hitting it and it acted like a magnifying glass. Everything was just right for the light to be concentrated to burn. He said if he hadn’t seen it he wouldn’t have believed it.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

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