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What alignment specs would be a good suggestion for my setup?
69 Fastback
Power steering
1" lowering springs (no shelby drop)
245/45/17 Tires
17 x 8 AR500 wheels
4.75 backspace
Had some upper ball joint issues and put new Moog ones in, way tighter than what I had.
Thanks,Ed
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I can't speak to a '69 but on the earlier cars the recommended specs are:
Caster: 3.5 to 5.0 degree Positive
Camber: 0 to .5 degree Negative
Toe: 1/16 to 1/8" Toe IN
With a 69 you may be able to get near that 5.0 degrees Positive on the caster...but it's pretty much not possible on a 65 - 66 without the Arning drop and even moving the UCA to the rear one turn on the shaft.
Good luck
BB
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People, do the Arning drop. It's nearly free, and makes a world of difference in the handling.
That said, Bullet Bob's info is good for 69's.
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Get rid of the lowering springs and do the Shelby/Arning drop. The problem with lowering springs is that they negatively modify the suspension geometry. A lowering spring lowers the car by moving the suspension upwards. This changes the static angle of the upper and lower control arms, as well as the angle and operating arc of the tie rods. You will likely get bump steer as a result of using lowering springs without some way to correct the tie rod angle (taller tie rod ends, or an adjustable height tie rod end system).
Then, you still have the issue's that were present in the stock suspension geometry, namely that there is a tremendous amount of camber gain as the suspension cycles. What this means is that the tire may have a good contact patch sitting static, but as the suspension loads the top of the tire moves outward and the contact patch gets smaller and reduces road grip. This is the primary reason why these cars plow like a pig through a turn stock (understeer).
The Shelby/Arning drop both corrects the poor suspension geometry and lowers the ride height. Its all win, with no negatives. It greatly reduces camber gain, improves positive caster, and keeps the tie rod operating angle stock. Lowering springs move the suspension up into the body; the Shelby/Arning drop moves the body down onto the suspension.
A performance alignment will be much easier with the Shelby/Arning drop. Without it you better set up for about 1.5 degrees of negative camber to get any kind of handling, and positive caster adjustment is going to be limited to maybe 2.5-3 degrees. With the drop you need about 0.5 degrees of negative camber and 3.5 degrees of positive caster is easily achieved (though more is great if you have the adjustment). I would add 0.25 degree more positive caster to the RH side to account for road crown.
Alignment specs with the drop:
Camber 0-0.5 dgerees negative
Caster 3.5 or more degrees positive (if you have manual steering the more you add the harder turning the wheel will be)
Toe 1/16" toe in per side (make sure you start with the centerlink centered in the car, you can't go by the steering wheel placement as it may have been altered at some point)
If you can't find a reputable alignment shop that works on old cars I'd advise learning to do the alignment yourself. I use the Fastrax system and align all my own vehicles after being continually disappointed in the alignments I got at local shops. The big chains (NTB, etc.) by and large are not good places to take a classic. They run on volume not precision. You want a shop that will align it to the specs you give them, and know how to make the adjustments to a classic mustang. Unfortunately, like our cars these shops are fewer and fewer each year, as are the alignment techs that understand them. If considering a local shop get referrals from forum members or local car club guys. Honestly, if you work on your own car there's no reason not to learn to do your own alignment. Its really not some black art; it just requires an understanding of what the adjustments are, how to make them, and how what you're doing effects the cars handling.
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Black Jade wrote:
What alignment specs would be a good suggestion for my setup?
Thanks,Ed
Ed, where are you located? There are folks from all over on this forum. If you were in my neighborhood I'd show you how to do am alignment, as would most members here.
TKO pretty much nailed it, take note. One area he covered I've not found to be true, increased effort to turn manual steering with increased caster. I've increased my caster a few times to its current 8° positive with no noticeable increase in effort. Ymmv. Did I use the word increase enough?
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TKOPerformance wrote:
Get rid of the lowering springs and do the Shelby/Arning drop. The problem with lowering springs is that they negatively modify the suspension geometry. A lowering spring lowers the car by moving the suspension upwards. This changes the static angle of the upper and lower control arms, as well as the angle and operating arc of the tie rods. You will likely get bump steer as a result of using lowering springs without some way to correct the tie rod angle (taller tie rod ends, or an adjustable height tie rod end system).
Then, you still have the issue's that were present in the stock suspension geometry, namely that there is a tremendous amount of camber gain as the suspension cycles. What this means is that the tire may have a good contact patch sitting static, but as the suspension loads the top of the tire moves outward and the contact patch gets smaller and reduces road grip. This is the primary reason why these cars plow like a pig through a turn stock (understeer).
The Shelby/Arning drop both corrects the poor suspension geometry and lowers the ride height. Its all win, with no negatives. It greatly reduces camber gain, improves positive caster, and keeps the tie rod operating angle stock. Lowering springs move the suspension up into the body; the Shelby/Arning drop moves the body down onto the suspension.
A performance alignment will be much easier with the Shelby/Arning drop. Without it you better set up for about 1.5 degrees of negative camber to get any kind of handling, and positive caster adjustment is going to be limited to maybe 2.5-3 degrees. With the drop you need about 0.5 degrees of negative camber and 3.5 degrees of positive caster is easily achieved (though more is great if you have the adjustment). I would add 0.25 degree more positive caster to the RH side to account for road crown.
Alignment specs with the drop:
Camber 0-0.5 dgerees negative
Caster 3.5 or more degrees positive (if you have manual steering the more you add the harder turning the wheel will be)
Toe 1/16" toe in per side (make sure you start with the centerlink centered in the car, you can't go by the steering wheel placement as it may have been altered at some point)
If you can't find a reputable alignment shop that works on old cars I'd advise learning to do the alignment yourself. I use the Fastrax system and align all my own vehicles after being continually disappointed in the alignments I got at local shops. The big chains (NTB, etc.) by and large are not good places to take a classic. They run on volume not precision. You want a shop that will align it to the specs you give them, and know how to make the adjustments to a classic mustang. Unfortunately, like our cars these shops are fewer and fewer each year, as are the alignment techs that understand them. If considering a local shop get referrals from forum members or local car club guys. Honestly, if you work on your own car there's no reason not to learn to do your own alignment. Its really not some black art; it just requires an understanding of what the adjustments are, how to make them, and how what you're doing effects the cars handling.
I have a little different experience. I have both the Arning Drop and 1" lowering sprigs. Handling is great and tire wear is even. No bump steer either. It tracks like it is on rails. However I also have TCP power R&P and their upper a-arms. Alignment is per your spec.
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rpm wrote:
Black Jade wrote:
What alignment specs would be a good suggestion for my setup?
Thanks,Ed
Ed, where are you located? There are folks from all over on this forum. If you were in my neighborhood I'd show you how to do am alignment, as would most members here.
TKO pretty much nailed it, take note. One area he covered I've not found to be true, increased effort to turn manual steering with increased caster. I've increased my caster a few times to its current 8° positive with no noticeable increase in effort. Ymmv. Did I use the word increase enough?
Did someone go through your steering box? Do you run a roller idler arm? There are things that can be done to allow for easier steering with a lot of positive caster and manual steering. Also, tire width makes a big difference. I noticed a decent increase in effort just going from stock width wheels to my current 8" wide wheels with 245s when I still had manual steering. I also never had the box rebuilt and a stock idler arm, which I'm sure didn't help anything.
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I bought a rebuilt Chockostang box, a roller idler arm from Opentracker, 245/40-18 tires on 18x8 wheels.
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lowercasesteve wrote:
TKOPerformance wrote:
Get rid of the lowering springs and do the Shelby/Arning drop. The problem with lowering springs is that they negatively modify the suspension geometry. A lowering spring lowers the car by moving the suspension upwards. This changes the static angle of the upper and lower control arms, as well as the angle and operating arc of the tie rods. You will likely get bump steer as a result of using lowering springs without some way to correct the tie rod angle (taller tie rod ends, or an adjustable height tie rod end system).
Then, you still have the issue's that were present in the stock suspension geometry, namely that there is a tremendous amount of camber gain as the suspension cycles. What this means is that the tire may have a good contact patch sitting static, but as the suspension loads the top of the tire moves outward and the contact patch gets smaller and reduces road grip. This is the primary reason why these cars plow like a pig through a turn stock (understeer).
The Shelby/Arning drop both corrects the poor suspension geometry and lowers the ride height. Its all win, with no negatives. It greatly reduces camber gain, improves positive caster, and keeps the tie rod operating angle stock. Lowering springs move the suspension up into the body; the Shelby/Arning drop moves the body down onto the suspension.
A performance alignment will be much easier with the Shelby/Arning drop. Without it you better set up for about 1.5 degrees of negative camber to get any kind of handling, and positive caster adjustment is going to be limited to maybe 2.5-3 degrees. With the drop you need about 0.5 degrees of negative camber and 3.5 degrees of positive caster is easily achieved (though more is great if you have the adjustment). I would add 0.25 degree more positive caster to the RH side to account for road crown.
Alignment specs with the drop:
Camber 0-0.5 dgerees negative
Caster 3.5 or more degrees positive (if you have manual steering the more you add the harder turning the wheel will be)
Toe 1/16" toe in per side (make sure you start with the centerlink centered in the car, you can't go by the steering wheel placement as it may have been altered at some point)
If you can't find a reputable alignment shop that works on old cars I'd advise learning to do the alignment yourself. I use the Fastrax system and align all my own vehicles after being continually disappointed in the alignments I got at local shops. The big chains (NTB, etc.) by and large are not good places to take a classic. They run on volume not precision. You want a shop that will align it to the specs you give them, and know how to make the adjustments to a classic mustang. Unfortunately, like our cars these shops are fewer and fewer each year, as are the alignment techs that understand them. If considering a local shop get referrals from forum members or local car club guys. Honestly, if you work on your own car there's no reason not to learn to do your own alignment. Its really not some black art; it just requires an understanding of what the adjustments are, how to make them, and how what you're doing effects the cars handling.
I have a little different experience. I have both the Arning Drop and 1" lowering sprigs. Handling is great and tire wear is even. No bump steer either. It tracks like it is on rails. However I also have TCP power R&P and their upper a-arms. Alignment is per your spec.
Tire wear is a function of alignment. You will only get uneven wear when you set up a lot of static negative camber. At 0-0.5 degrees negative I've not noticed any abnormal wear. At 1.5 degrees I noticed quite a lot, but that's what it took to get acceptable handling without the Shelby/Arning drop. More would have been even better, but the eccentrics are maxed at 1.5 degrees on my car. With the drop and 0.5 degrees negative it still handles loads better than it did without it and more negative camber, because the camber curve is so much better.
I will caution that many people have different experiences, and handling is a somewhat subjective topic, but this is also where you need to be careful comparing apples to oranges. Without knowing what the tie rod geometry is with R&P setup, and what geometry changes TCP made to the UCAs, your experience is really only applicable to a car set up exactly the same way.
There are certainly ways to run lowering springs without adverse effects on handling, but my advice is aimed at a guy who runs stock parts. If you don't want to spend a bunch of money on the front end you're better off just doing the Shelby/Arning drop to get the front end down a little vs. running lowering springs, and the improvement in handling is dramatic. With the array of parts available for these cars you could tie up $5,000 or more in a front end in the blink of an eye, but is it necessary for the average guy who just wants a little better handling? Definitely not, and if you want bang for buck I would advise doing the Shelby/Arning drop and rebuilding the front end with high quality parts if its worn out. If you've got an extra $150 lying around toss a 1" front sway bar in it. If your pockets are deeper we can talk further.
Of course trying to get great handling without installing a good set of subframe connectors is kind of like putting lipstick on a pig, but I digress.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
Get rid of the lowering springs and do the Shelby/Arning drop. The problem with lowering springs is that they negatively modify the suspension geometry. A lowering spring lowers the car by moving the suspension upwards. This changes the static angle of the upper and lower control arms, as well as the angle and operating arc of the tie rods. You will likely get bump steer as a result of using lowering springs without some way to correct the tie rod angle (taller tie rod ends, or an adjustable height tie rod end system).
Then, you still have the issue's that were present in the stock suspension geometry, namely that there is a tremendous amount of camber gain as the suspension cycles. What this means is that the tire may have a good contact patch sitting static, but as the suspension loads the top of the tire moves outward and the contact patch gets smaller and reduces road grip. This is the primary reason why these cars plow like a pig through a turn stock (understeer).
The Shelby/Arning drop both corrects the poor suspension geometry and lowers the ride height. Its all win, with no negatives. It greatly reduces camber gain, improves positive caster, and keeps the tie rod operating angle stock. Lowering springs move the suspension up into the body; the Shelby/Arning drop moves the body down onto the suspension.
A performance alignment will be much easier with the Shelby/Arning drop. Without it you better set up for about 1.5 degrees of negative camber to get any kind of handling, and positive caster adjustment is going to be limited to maybe 2.5-3 degrees. With the drop you need about 0.5 degrees of negative camber and 3.5 degrees of positive caster is easily achieved (though more is great if you have the adjustment). I would add 0.25 degree more positive caster to the RH side to account for road crown.
Alignment specs with the drop:
Camber 0-0.5 dgerees negative
Caster 3.5 or more degrees positive (if you have manual steering the more you add the harder turning the wheel will be)
Toe 1/16" toe in per side (make sure you start with the centerlink centered in the car, you can't go by the steering wheel placement as it may have been altered at some point)
If you can't find a reputable alignment shop that works on old cars I'd advise learning to do the alignment yourself. I use the Fastrax system and align all my own vehicles after being continually disappointed in the alignments I got at local shops. The big chains (NTB, etc.) by and large are not good places to take a classic. They run on volume not precision. You want a shop that will align it to the specs you give them, and know how to make the adjustments to a classic mustang. Unfortunately, like our cars these shops are fewer and fewer each year, as are the alignment techs that understand them. If considering a local shop get referrals from forum members or local car club guys. Honestly, if you work on your own car there's no reason not to learn to do your own alignment. Its really not some black art; it just requires an understanding of what the adjustments are, how to make them, and how what you're doing effects the cars handling.
Excellent advice!
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rpm wrote:
Black Jade wrote:
What alignment specs would be a good suggestion for my setup?
Thanks,Ed
Ed, where are you located? There are folks from all over on this forum. If you were in my neighborhood I'd show you how to do am alignment, as would most members
Bob
He is about a 100 miles south east of me in Southern Illinois
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I was going to create a new thread but this one is recent and will piggy back on it.
We are just finishing the restoration on a '68 coupe and are wondering about the alignment/steering. We put a Borgenson PS unit on and the car doesn't track naturally down the road like it used to. It kind of hunts back and forth, not bad but it is noticeable. We also replaced a lot of front components during the restoration. The car has Granada front discs and a stock ride height. I see up above Bullet Bob put these specs:
Caster: 3.5 to 5.0 degree Positive
Camber: 0 to .5 degree Negative
Toe: 1/16 to 1/8" Toe IN
Does that apply to a '68? After having it aligned twice by a local shop here is where it is currently. If the above numbers are correct then hopefully that is the issue.
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You will need to do the Shelby/Arning drop to permit you to run something like 3.5 degrees of positive caster. The car will never track straight without that much, and it simply isn't possible with the factory setup.
Camber and toe are fine for that setup.
Also, is the steering twitchy? Does it seem to dart off center? If so you need to reduce the assist pressure. Borgesson sells a kit to allow you to do this. I dropped mine down to the second to the lowest setting available. No more twitchy steering.
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Sorry I have been incredibly busy and just now getting back to this.
Yes the steering is a little twitchy and it does dart off center. It's not good at all like the old feeling of manual steering. It used to track straight before we restored it. I will look into the kit you mention. First I want to get the alignment right to see if that will be good enough.
So if I don't have the drop how much positive caster can I do, and will that help it track straight? Is positive caster leaning the top forward or backward? Sorry for the stupid questions. I'm not looking for any type of performance setup at this point, just a good driver. My dad said he is going to try to align it since we apparently can't find someone to get it right.
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68P51. I noticed on your photo that you have negative caster on both sides. Remember riding a bicycle back in the good ol’ days? I’m sure you spun the handle bars around backwards and the bicycle was hard to steer...and scary too! That’s how caster affects steering. Appears that you did same thing on the car. Take a look at any bicycle or motorcycle the handle bars are rearward of tire vertical centerline...it’s easy to see as compared to a car or truck spindle. Hope this helps you visualize how caster is setup. Just remember adjustments in this order: caster, camber, toe. Especially true for 65-66.
Last edited by Nos681 (7/10/2019 7:49 AM)
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68P51 wrote:
Sorry I have been incredibly busy and just now getting back to this.
Yes the steering is a little twitchy and it does dart off center. It's not good at all like the old feeling of manual steering. It used to track straight before we restored it. I will look into the kit you mention. First I want to get the alignment right to see if that will be good enough.
So if I don't have the drop how much positive caster can I do, and will that help it track straight? Is positive caster leaning the top forward or backward? Sorry for the stupid questions. I'm not looking for any type of performance setup at this point, just a good driver. My dad said he is going to try to align it since we apparently can't find someone to get it right.
Positive caster is with the top of the spindle leaning to the rear....Upper ball joint vertically behind the lower ball joint.
With everything stock I was able to get 2.5 degrees of POSITIVE caster which should make the car drive decent, however, you likely will not have good "return to center" with only two degrees of caster and the Borgeson steering box. I presently have 3.75 degrees of Pos caster and with all new components (tight) it will not return to center. I also have a Borgeson box.
If it really has negative caster that certainly could make it "twitchy", IMO.
BB
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Thank you. We will increase the caster and see if that helps. I may do the arning drop at some point. Just want to get all the bugs worked out and drive it for a while first.
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What power steering setup do you have?
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68P51 wrote:
Thank you. We will increase the caster and see if that helps. I may do the arning drop at some point. Just want to get all the bugs worked out and drive it for a while first.
Doing the Arning drop first will help you get the bugs worked out.
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The Shelby drop will aid tremendously on camber. On the long bash trips where I have several cars following in my rearview mirror, I am amazed at the amount of negative camber most Mustangs show as they go down the highway. It appears to be 3 degrees negative or more as the cars are at speed. (Those of you who just look at your cars in the garage or at a local car show will not experience this, but then, your tires never wear out, either). Those who drive them on real road trips will notice it. The cars gain negative camber at highway speeds, which is the exact place where you need your alignment to be working the best for you. All that said, you should be dialing in a little bit of positive camber or, at the very least, zero camber. Real world conditions dictate real world numbers. I prefer to set mine up for zero camber. The cars actually drive better on the highway if 0.5 to 1.0 positive camber is used. Again, I prefer mine at zero.
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I have the Borgeson Power Steering setup. I have always wanted to do the Arning drop but never have. Now that I'm older I don't like my cars as low as I used to. But now that I know it's for more than just handling and to all your points I will at some point. I assume I may need to remove a spring on the back if I do that?
Right now I just want to get it as good as I can, I may do it in the winter. I haven't driven the car for 23 years and have been restoring it for the last 10 years and I don't want to tear into any another project or delay at the moment. I want to drive it the rest of the summer.
I'll see if we can get some positive caster in it and maybe that will help for now.
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Definitely do the drop first. You will need 3.5 degree positive caster at a minimum with the Borgeson system. They state that in their instructions. Without enough positive caster the front end will have a tendency to wander. It will also feel "darty" off center, though that is also caused by too much power assist. I dropped the assist pressure in mine by 300psi and it eliminated the twitchy steering, BUT I already had 3.5 degrees of positive caster in the front end.
Honestly the drop takes a day at most. The front end on these cars is absurdly simple. I didn't even remove the UCAs, just unbolted them and rotated them out of the way withe rotors and calipers still on the spindle. Longest part of the process was compressing and reinstalling the springs. Took me about 2 hours per side, or 4 hours total.
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68P51 wrote:
Sorry I have been incredibly busy and just now getting back to this.
Yes the steering is a little twitchy and it does dart off center. It's not good at all like the old feeling of manual steering. It used to track straight before we restored it. I will look into the kit you mention. First I want to get the alignment right to see if that will be good enough.
So if I don't have the drop how much positive caster can I do, and will that help it track straight? Is positive caster leaning the top forward or backward? Sorry for the stupid questions. I'm not looking for any type of performance setup at this point, just a good driver. My dad said he is going to try to align it since we apparently can't find someone to get it right.
You sound like your setup is very similar to mine on my 68. I recommend two things - do the Shelby drop, and use the "performance specs" given on Daze's website (
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do the arning drop it is so worth it and ya cant beat the price. use the performance specs
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Okay, going to do the arning drop. About to order the template. Any other must do's that aren't too much additional effort or $ while I'm in there? Currently stock rebuilt suspension with Granada discs and Borgeson steering. Don't want anything that will increase harshness or road noise.
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