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  •  » Still cant cool at Idle

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    8/23/2019 8:43 PM  #1

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
    Registered: 4/06/2019
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    Still cant cool at Idle

    yes Im back. just installed a severe duty thermal clutch on this thing and each time I discover more and more. We have a metal shroud that sits dab on the midle of the blades. And At a idle the ire is not coming out torwards the motor. It is finding any crack or the 2 open top corners and is pumpumping hot air so is my shroud still to deep, should the blades be more out in the open? should I remove it completly  
    65 stock 289 with champion 2 row 1" tubes, 17" steel fan? not exiting air at idle

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     

    8/23/2019 10:19 PM  #2

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    More info.  What t-stat are you running?  Define not cooling.  Is it running too hot?  What's too hot?  Does the temperature just continue to climb while idling? 

     

    8/24/2019 2:07 AM  #3

    Cab4word67
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    TKO, 
    this thing has a good working 180 stat, the problem that I investageged tonight is at idle it will slowly rise past 215 if I let it with AC on in Oregon 80+ temps. It seems that the fan just wont pull the air . The air was blasting out right above the rad like the fan was spinig hot air but not pulling it.  It will hold a shop rag to the grill. Runs 185-190 max, some times even a little lower. without the AC it runs 170-185 max. Tonight I added a strip of ABS to cover the whole blade on the shroud and that seems to make the air come out towards the motor now instead of pouring out right at the rad.  I hate to say but I think this thing will only cool with the electric fan as I once had. When I added the new rad I lost the space I needed for my black magic fan, but then that fan wouldnt let air pass on the hwy. So I went to this clutch fan set up with a steel shroud. the hayden clutch locks at 80-90 % but just dosent seem to hold the temp down while at idle. defently a slower climb now then with the standard clutch. before I changed the clutch to the severe duty one I could watch the temp rise quickly.
    I will wait for your reply and maybe just maybe there is a suloution. 

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/24/2019 6:09 AM  #4

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Its an odd problem for sure.  Though, 215 isn't really hot.  A typical 50/50 coolant/water mix in a system with 15-16psi of pressure doesn't boil until 250-260 degrees.  If the temperature continues to rise past 215, or seems to be rising rapidly (like 5 degrees a minute) with no signs of stopping I'd say there's a problem. 

    AC likes air to move, and a fan only does so much of that.  It gets rid of heat best when its moving through the air.  So I'm wondering what the temp is while driving? 

    Of course, the other concern is that its only 80 degrees outside.  If it was 90 or higher you wold expect the temperature to increase even more, and st some point it starts to become concerning.  With AC on I don't think temps in the 220 range would be alarming, but getting much past that you start to get into your safety margin.  I always like to have a good 30 degrees before boil over.  I'm the type that's constantly scanning my gauges, so I know I'll see something wrong as soon as it starts to go south. 

     

    8/24/2019 6:11 AM  #5

    Rufus68
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    From: Knoxville, TN
    Registered: 4/26/2017
    Posts: 720

    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    How much distance do you have between the radiator and the condenser?  I was just reading that turbulence between the two will decrease the amount of air able to flow through the radiator.  Ideally you should mount the condenser as close to the radiator as you can to reduce this turbulence and increase the air flow and cooling efficiency.

    1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
     

    8/24/2019 2:21 PM  #6

    Cab4word67
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Thanks for the confendince TKO, reasureing me that it is likely ok. Yes i do run 50/50 and have not boiled anything over yet. Next week we are going to have some 90+ days (oh no its going to be hot in the Pacific NW LOL)
    For Rufus68, the unit is about 1-1/4" away as there kit placed it (Vintage Air). 
    it does however cover the whole radiator opening. We are going out today for some running around so I will watch the temp and see if my add on to the shroud helped as much as I think it did. Temps will only be in the hi 70s but I will know if it is holding or climbing. 
    It does seem odd to me that the air is coming out at about a 45 deg from the shroud nw but at least it is now coming out and the tadiator area around the top is now cool.

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/24/2019 2:46 PM  #7

    Rufus68
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    From: Knoxville, TN
    Registered: 4/26/2017
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    I think you should research sealing the gap between the condenser and the radiator.  It seems to have helped others solve the same issues.
    One example:
    https://chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/243983/

    1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
     

    8/24/2019 3:21 PM  #8

    BillyC
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    From: Chesapeake, Va.
    Registered: 4/02/2013
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Cab4word67 wrote:

    TKO, 
    this thing has a good working 180 stat, the problem that I investageged tonight is at idle it will slowly rise past 215 if I let it with AC on in Oregon 80+ temps. It seems that the fan just wont pull the air . The air was blasting out right above the rad like the fan was spinig hot air but not pulling it.  It will hold a shop rag to the grill. Runs 185-190 max, some times even a little lower. without the AC it runs 170-185 max. Tonight I added a strip of ABS to cover the whole blade on the shroud and that seems to make the air come out towards the motor now instead of pouring out right at the rad.  I hate to say but I think this thing will only cool with the electric fan as I once had. When I added the new rad I lost the space I needed for my black magic fan, but then that fan wouldnt let air pass on the hwy. So I went to this clutch fan set up with a steel shroud. the hayden clutch locks at 80-90 % but just dosent seem to hold the temp down while at idle. defently a slower climb now then with the standard clutch. before I changed the clutch to the severe duty one I could watch the temp rise quickly.
    I will wait for your reply and maybe just maybe there is a suloution. 

     
    I don't have a/c but my 289 idles and runs at 180. I don't have a shroud but I made a cover to cover the gap between the grille and and the radiator support. That seems to help a lot at idle. I also have a large six blade ridged steel fan.

    "anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
     

    8/24/2019 6:53 PM  #9

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Today’s drive. 89 outside. Without AC we run 175-185 in stop in go. With AC on its about 180-185. Sometimes at a long lite it would hit 190. Got home and it took about 10 minutes to get to 205.  We will see how it does  next week when we hit 95. All in all I mite be ok for now   Still thinking about going to the electric from Champions with there shroud.   I emailed them about the air getting out at cruse

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/25/2019 9:52 AM  #10

    MS
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    From: Canyon Lake, Texas
    Registered: 1/24/2013
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Just my experienced warning.  Stay away fro, the champion radiator and electric fans.  You can get it right "the old fashioned way".  You will get lots of conflicting advice on electric fans here.  Just wait for it.
    My 66 with 427 stroker and 1974 Maverick original 17" flex fan cools just fine, making 500 HP.  Your car can as well if everything is right.  If you MUST spend money to fix it, do it with a 69-70 24" clamp-in radiator and shroud.  It is the biggest you can install and have it still look like a Mustang factory installation.

    By right, that also includes non-rusty, non-clogged internal coolant passages, proper timing advance, proper pulley ratios, non-plugged radiator, non-collapsing hoses, functioning thermostat, effective water pump and head gaskets not installed backwards.

    Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     

    8/25/2019 10:25 AM  #11

    Rufus68
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    From: Knoxville, TN
    Registered: 4/26/2017
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Wow MS, I think the only thing you didn't mention was what to use as a coolant liquid. Maybe also the intake manifold gasket.

    1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
     

    8/25/2019 1:27 PM  #12

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    I can't speak about Champion's electric fan/shroud, because I don't know how good it is and have never personally used one.  Research into electric fans before I installed mine revealed that they are definitely not all created equal.  I personally would only use a SPAL or repurposed OEM fan, because I know they are designed for constant duty, long life, exposure to the elements, etc.  I also know they actually cool because they move a lot of air.

    You're probably more likely to get Democrats and Republicans to agree on healthcare before you get people who are die hard electric and die hard mechanical fan people to see eye to eye.  My advice is do what you think is best after considerable research.  I'm not going to turn this into yet ANOTHER fan debate.  Ask a specific question I'll give a specific answer, or feel free to PM me. 
     

     

    8/25/2019 4:07 PM  #13

    Rudi
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    From: Stuck in the 50's Welland Ca
    Registered: 4/01/2013
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    I can't bad mouth Champion rads. my 24 inch, pass. in and pass. out, home made shroud and 5 blade mechanical never over heats.  After many hours of scouring the net I could not find a shroud of any manufacture that would work for me.
    The Champ rad is all tig welded and in my estimation is a quality product. YMMV!

    Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
     

    8/25/2019 5:55 PM  #14

    351MooseStang
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    From: Brookings, Oregon
    Registered: 4/03/2013
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    As said above, you need to look at the position of the condenser. You want that condenser real close to the radiator so the air passes from one to the other so you don't get hot air 'piling up' in between them.

    Look at any OEM setup and you'll see them nearly against each other.

     

    8/26/2019 6:23 PM  #15

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    I see there is a air gap on the driver side. Pretty large one, I figured the air would go thru and cool but I see where there could be a problem maybe. Its only at idle that the car will not cool so if what you are saying is the condenser is like a wall in front of the rad and the air is being pulled thru the small gap to the side? If so then the rad cant pull enough air thru the rad to make flow
    Yes??

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/26/2019 6:40 PM  #16

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Its more like a layer of heated air between the two prevents cool air from moving through.  Its creating a thermal dam.  Air doesn't like to make radical direction changes so it making a 90 degree turn is unlikely.  Instead the cool air is just stacking up in from of the hot air and not moving through the radiator.

    Typically the radiator and condenser are very close together, almost in contact. 
     

     

    8/26/2019 9:35 PM  #17

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    I see there is a air gap on the driver side, and on the top.   I figured the air would go thru and cool but I see where there could be a problem maybe. Its only at idle that the car will not cool so if what you are saying is the condenser is like a wall in front of the rad and the air is being pulled thru the small gap from the top and to the side? If so then the rad cant pull enough air thru around the corner to the rad to make flow
    Yes??

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/27/2019 4:06 PM  #18

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Kind of.  The condenser is radiating so much heat that its creating a wall so to speak. 

     

    8/27/2019 6:10 PM  #19

    Hornman
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    From: Mansfield, Texas
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    TKOPerformance wrote:

    Kind of.  The condenser is radiating so much heat that its creating a wall so to speak. 

     
    No. Radiated heat has no force. There are three modes of heat transfer: conduction, convection, and radiation. The engine coolant conducts its heat to the metal in the radiator. The heat is then conducted to the air flowing through the radiator. The problem that is being discussed is is a fluid flow problem. Air is a fluid in this case.

    Moving the condenser very close to the radiator will help channel the air going through the condenser on through the radiator. Sealing the edges of the condenser to the radiator will keep air from escaping out the edges.

    From everything that has been discussed so far it sounds like you need a checklist
    1. Is the fan really turning?
    2. How many fan blades are there? More blades are better.
    3. Are the fan blades angled to pull air through the radiator? There are fans with pitches of both directions.
    4. Is the fan centered in the shroud?
    5. Is the clearance from the tip of the fan blades to the shroud less than 1/2”?
    6. If you have a typical Mustang shroud, the edge at the fan is plain sheetmetal at a 90 degree angle with no tunnel. For this type of shroud the fan should be centered in the mouth of the shroud for best air flow.
    7. Is the shroud sealed to the radiator, no air leaks?
    8. The condenser should be very close to the radiator and sealed at the edges.

     

    8/27/2019 10:09 PM  #20

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Remimber this was not pulling much air with AC off at idle

    1    yes its thermo 80-90 % new just like the 60-70 % thermo I started with was, both Hayden
    2    6  Derale steel blade, no flex
    3    yes faceing the correct way to grab and pull out of
    4    no it had a bit more space at the top Full finger) then the bottom (1/4") stock metal ford one, couldnt go lower
    5    no it is about 1-1/4", the hub of the new HD clutch was 1/2" away
    6    yes stock steel ford shroud  cant get it centered
    7    yes sealed with a bulb type rubber seal  99%
    8    was about 1" away and not sealed at all lots of gap but no more all sealed 80% 

    Well that was fun, I didnt do well missed 2 the shroud sucks, I even made the blades fully in and no real change.

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/28/2019 5:05 AM  #21

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    Hornman wrote:

    TKOPerformance wrote:

    Kind of.  The condenser is radiating so much heat that its creating a wall so to speak. 

     
    No. Radiated heat has no force. There are three modes of heat transfer: conduction, convection, and radiation. The engine coolant conducts its heat to the metal in the radiator. The heat is then conducted to the air flowing through the radiator. The problem that is being discussed is is a fluid flow problem. Air is a fluid in this case.

    Moving the condenser very close to the radiator will help channel the air going through the condenser on through the radiator. Sealing the edges of the condenser to the radiator will keep air from escaping out the edges.

    From everything that has been discussed so far it sounds like you need a checklist
    1. Is the fan really turning?
    2. How many fan blades are there? More blades are better.
    3. Are the fan blades angled to pull air through the radiator? There are fans with pitches of both directions.
    4. Is the fan centered in the shroud?
    5. Is the clearance from the tip of the fan blades to the shroud less than 1/2”?
    6. If you have a typical Mustang shroud, the edge at the fan is plain sheetmetal at a 90 degree angle with no tunnel. For this type of shroud the fan should be centered in the mouth of the shroud for best air flow.
    7. Is the shroud sealed to the radiator, no air leaks?
    8. The condenser should be very close to the radiator and sealed at the edges.

    I'm not talking about heat transfer; I'm talking about air draw.  The heat is simply present in the air from radiation.  Not my greatest job explaining, but the idea is that the condenser and radiator should in effect be one unit through which the air can pass.  When a dead space exists between them there is an area of extremely hot air which lingers when the car is not in motion.  When the car is in motion the cool air has sufficient force behind it to overcome this hot air dead zone and push through.  While stopped or creeping the fan is trying to suck air through that dead space and instead its just pulling the hot air from the condenser back through the radiator rather than pull the cool air on the outside of the condenser through everything. 
     

     

    8/28/2019 8:48 PM  #22

    MS
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    From: Canyon Lake, Texas
    Registered: 1/24/2013
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    As a test, cut some foam rubber strips and wedge them between the outer perimeter of the rad and condenser. This will tell you if there is a problem with air flow going around the edges.

    Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     

    8/28/2019 9:31 PM  #23

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    The top and left side of the condencer were wide open, I filled the top with 1-1/4" filler and it took 2-3/4" to fill the gap in the left side. The right side looks to be preaty close to no gap. I havent made it under the car yet to see how big the gap mite be. thanks againg for lots of help
    chris

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/29/2019 4:57 AM  #24

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    WOW, those gaps are huge.  I'm wondering why the condenser is so far away?  Is the condenser or radiator not a stock style part?  The radiator should pretty much sit almost contacting the radiator support.  My condenser has mounting ears that are bent to allow the condenser to get as close as possible to the radiator.  I'm thinking so mounting point re-engineering is in order for your setup. 

     

    8/30/2019 12:40 AM  #25

    Cab4word67
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    From: Portland, Ore
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    Re: Still cant cool at Idle

    New up date
    The bottom was like a open door. I installed metal flashing all the way across the bottom to seal a hole about 1" wide. A little foam in the corners and we are sealed all the way around. Now we are holding at 178-183 and doesnt move with the AC on in 85 deg

    Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
       •Thread Starter
     

     

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