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  •  » Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

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    10/28/2019 8:21 AM  #1

    TremendousWand
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    Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    1966 Mustang Coupe, 1988 5.0 HO Swap, EFI, T5z, Painless EFI harness and Painless chassis harness, MSD 6AL Ignition Control

    I have the dreaded crank but no spark.  Fuel system looks good.  Got pressure in the fuel system.  I have gas.
    I checked for spark at the spark plugs and got nothing, then checked for spark at the distributor and got nothing, then checked for spark back to the ignition coil and got nothing.  From there the harness goes back to the ECU and the fuses.  Checked all the fuses and they look good.

    So that's where I'm at.  The painless guys asked me to connect the check engine light.  The MSD installation manual for the IC has a series of troubleshooting steps I'll go through today.  

    They system was running a year ago.  The only change I made was to connect the NSS wiring to the T5Z NSS which works.  When I put the car in gear and try and start the engine nothing happens.  When I put the car in neutral the engine cranks.  Other than that the only thing I've done is replace the battery.  Lights, wipers, horn everything else works... The red light on the MSD Ignition Control is on with KOEO.  


    Any 'captain obvious' things I should look at?
     

    Last edited by TremendousWand (11/18/2019 6:35 AM)

     

    10/28/2019 10:46 AM  #2

    Bolted to Floor
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    From: Houston, Texas
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    If I understand correctly, you added a neutral safety switch to the transmission. Now the car starts in neutral like it should but will not start in gear with the clutch pushed in. Is that correct?

    Sounds like you need to add a contact switch to the clutch pedal that bypasses the NSS and allows the car to start in gear while the clutch is depressed like the new cars.

    John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
     

    10/28/2019 11:39 AM  #3

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Sounds to me like the car cranks in neutral but won't fire and won't even crank in gear, meaning the NSS switch is wired correctly. 

    Did you check for voltage at the coil?  If it has voltage and no spark the coil is bad. 

    Beyond that my first advice would be bypass the MSD and see if it fires.  If that doesn't work see if you can test the TFI module, or swap it for a known good one. 

     

    10/28/2019 12:03 PM  #4

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Bolted to Floor wrote:

    If I understand correctly, you added a neutral safety switch to the transmission. Now the car starts in neutral like it should but will not start in gear with the clutch pushed in. Is that correct?

    Sounds like you need to add a contact switch to the clutch pedal that bypasses the NSS and allows the car to start in gear while the clutch is depressed like the new cars.

    The car doesn't start at all.  It only cranks in neutral, which is the way the NSS on the transmission is supposed to work.

       •Thread Starter
     

    10/28/2019 6:55 PM  #5

    Bolted to Floor
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    TremendousWand wrote:

    Bolted to Floor wrote:

    If I understand correctly, you added a neutral safety switch to the transmission. Now the car starts in neutral like it should but will not start in gear with the clutch pushed in. Is that correct?

    Sounds like you need to add a contact switch to the clutch pedal that bypasses the NSS and allows the car to start in gear while the clutch is depressed like the new cars.

    The car doesn't start at all.  It only cranks in neutral, which is the way the NSS on the transmission is supposed to work.

    I miss understood what I read, my bad. Looks like TKO got you some sound advice.

    John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
     

    10/28/2019 7:23 PM  #6

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Captain Obvious Strikes Again!!

    The ECU main harness wasn't properly grounded.  It's weird because the CE light was just solid so I knew it was getting power and I checked the voltage and it was getting straight battery at 12.7v.

    Then I plugged in my code reader and it just read blank 000s.  The trouble shooting said to jump the ground if there was no test initiated and after that everything looks good.  Will do a take 2 and try and run it this weekend.

       •Thread Starter
     

    10/29/2019 4:29 AM  #7

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Yeah, that was going to be my third suggestion.  These systems are pretty robust, so when they aren't working it typically is something simple. 

     

    10/30/2019 5:59 AM  #8

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Well I re did the ground connection the for the ECU and verified it was a good ground with a light indicator and tried to run the check engine test and no dice....

    It only connects with the ECU when I use a jumper wire from one of the ports on the connector to a ground.  Obviously, that's not supposed to happen.  Got late last night and couldn't go any further.  I'm thinking the ground pin to the ECU connection is bad?

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    10/31/2019 4:23 AM  #9

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Could be, or its bent or pushed out of the connector body in the harness. 

     

    11/01/2019 2:04 PM  #10

    MS
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    I know you are probably chasing something more sophisticated, but an ignition switch can cause a similar issue, usually noted by tries to start but dies when the start position is released.

    Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     

    11/04/2019 1:19 PM  #11

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    TKOPerformance wrote:

    Could be, or its bent or pushed out of the connector body in the harness. 

    Checked the continuity of the ground wire to the harness connector and it was good.
    Checked the continuity of the ground pin in the ECU to the ECU housing and it was good.  

    Still no dice.  Going to talk to painless wiring today to see if they got any leads.

       •Thread Starter
     

    11/04/2019 4:29 PM  #12

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Sounds super simple, but did you actually verify that the wire was connected to a good ground?  Continuity is a good test to verify that there are no breaks and things are making contact, but I would then use a test light connected to 12V to ensure the ground is good.  Do not put 12V through the ECM on the ground leg, that could be disastrous, but you can unplug the harness and test the pin at the harness this way without risking anything. 

     

    11/05/2019 7:37 AM  #13

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    TKOPerformance wrote:

    Sounds super simple, but did you actually verify that the wire was connected to a good ground?  Continuity is a good test to verify that there are no breaks and things are making contact, but I would then use a test light connected to 12V to ensure the ground is good.  Do not put 12V through the ECM on the ground leg, that could be disastrous, but you can unplug the harness and test the pin at the harness this way without risking anything. 

    Yes.  Used a light indicator, ground it good.  

    Painless said to go ahead and splice the NSS wire on the EFI harness to some other wire on the harness as it won't be used.  The instructions do say to do this, but originally they told me that I didn't have to connect that wire since the chassis harness used it's own NSS wire.  

    The also said to check the wiring to the actual ignition switch.

    Going to do both of those things and give it a try.

       •Thread Starter
     

    11/18/2019 6:43 AM  #14

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    It was the MSD ignition box. 
    I have a 6A installed.  Must have gone bad at some point.  There is a note in the instructions about removing it before doing any welding on the vehicle.  I installed subframe connectors about a year back and I suspect that might have done it.  Ran the wiring straight to the coil and it fired right up.  

    Anyway, I mailed the MSD box in for repair.  A lot of people say to just trash these ignition boxes but I'm going to stick it out at least one more time.  If it fails again I'll go with another brand.  I'll definetly remove it before doing any future welding on the car though.  

    Of course, the second I fired up the car I noticed a coolant leak from the heater box.  What a POS fiberglass junk those boxes where.  Went down to autozone and got a replacement heatcore, patched up the heater box w/ some fiberglass and fired her up w/ no leaks.  
    Car sounded like -oh no I used a word I shouldn't have- w/ only shorty headers and no exhaust.  Being EFI, the O2 sensors not being there probably was throwing off the ECU.  But the car held temperature w/ no other leaks, fan kicked on at the thermostat temp so I'm going to declare the cooling system operational.

    Now I just got to find the $700 for the exhaust system install.  

       •Thread Starter
     

    11/18/2019 7:13 AM  #15

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    I've had decent luck with the 6A over the years.  The 6AL, not so much.  The one I sent in came back as unrepairable, so good luck, but don't get your hopes up. 

     

    12/24/2019 5:51 AM  #16

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Sometimes it just takes another set of eyes.
    Turns out it was the negative lead on coming from the ignition box wasn't actually going to ground.  Fixed it and fired right up. 

       •Thread Starter
     

    12/24/2019 5:52 AM  #17

    TremendousWand
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    Re: Crank but No Start...No Voltage at Ignition Coil [finally solved]

    Sometimes it just takes another set of eyes.
    Turns out it was the negative lead on coming from the ignition box wasn't actually going to ground.  Fixed it and fired right up. 

       •Thread Starter
     

     

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