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11/10/2019 6:53 AM  #1


high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Hello , i will apreciate understand this , so i can explain why my engine seems screaming  like an eagle when i try to reach some high rev . From 3800 to 4000  seems already at top of what can give . it slowly  reach 4500 i can feel  the fatigue in that . 
Is the stock 289 cams so limited  ?   the timing has a big part in this game or only little ? 
I don't know if i am wrongly used to think at a modern car while i should think about a v8 engine that is not my history / background . is right to use the car at 3500  and 4000 already in the red zone  ?
I always heard about mild cams runs at 5500 and other more aggressive at 6500 , but where and how can give so much this engine ? 
is possible that carburation and timing has so great influence in high rev ? 

Thanks so much ! 

 

11/10/2019 5:38 PM  #2


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Its a "package"..........(don't say it Don!)
Cam..... SPRINGS....timing....carb....Heads (to a certain degree) work together to get the high revs(like an eagle) you desire..  Duration and LSA are the two most important parts of a camshaft, to get a high reving engine. Lift has nothing to do with that part Butt....is very important to making power.
IF you have a stock 289 with stock springs they are 40+ years old and are probably pretty weak. Weak springs don't rev very high because they.........don't spring back very well........hence valve float.

Think of an old man.........like BulletBob in a foot race with a young man like Lt. Dan.
BB would be out-of-breath half way through the race while Lt. Dan would still be running hard.
Now 6sally6 would just jump on his bicycle and run over BOTH of them and declare himself the winner.('cause that's how I roll!)
You get the point.............right?
6sal6

Last edited by 6sally6 (11/10/2019 10:05 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/10/2019 5:55 PM  #3


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

6sally6 wrote:

Think of an old man.........like BulletBob in a foot race with a young man like Captain Dan.

6sal6

I'm pretty sure it's Lt Dan, and Captain Morgan


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

11/10/2019 10:04 PM  #4


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Bearing Bob wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Think of an old man.........like BulletBob in a foot race with a young man like Captain Dan.

6sal6

I'm pretty sure it's Lt Dan, and Captain Morgan

Well........whateverrrrrrrr!
6s6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/11/2019 12:10 AM  #5


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

thanks Olds !       I have to revise the top rpm at 4000  . Will never reach 4500 not even crying ..  
So this 3500 rpm  seems low to be the average usable ? 
i am wrong ? 

     Thread Starter
 

11/11/2019 6:41 AM  #6


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Alessandro wrote:

Hello , i will apreciate understand this , so i can explain why my engine seems screaming  like an eagle when i try to reach some high rev . From 3800 to 4000  seems already at top of what can give . it slowly  reach 4500 i can feel  the fatigue in that . 
Is the stock 289 cams so limited  ?   the timing has a big part in this game or only little ? 
I don't know if i am wrongly used to think at a modern car while i should think about a v8 engine that is not my history / background . is right to use the car at 3500  and 4000 already in the red zone  ?
I always heard about mild cams runs at 5500 and other more aggressive at 6500 , but where and how can give so much this engine ? 
is possible that carburation and timing has so great influence in high rev ? 

Thanks so much ! 

 
What kind of “stock” 289 cam do you have?
What type of ignition do you have?
Initial and total timing settings?
What elevation are you doing this?

Gaba has great write up of setting up Duraspark distributor too.

This information may help to troubleshoot.

 

11/11/2019 11:01 AM  #7


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Nos681 wrote:

Alessandro wrote:

Hello , i will apreciate understand this , so i can explain why my engine seems screaming  like an eagle when i try to reach some high rev . From 3800 to 4000  seems already at top of what can give . it slowly  reach 4500 i can feel  the fatigue in that . 
Is the stock 289 cams so limited  ?   the timing has a big part in this game or only little ? 
I don't know if i am wrongly used to think at a modern car while i should think about a v8 engine that is not my history / background . is right to use the car at 3500  and 4000 already in the red zone  ?
I always heard about mild cams runs at 5500 and other more aggressive at 6500 , but where and how can give so much this engine ? 
is possible that carburation and timing has so great influence in high rev ? 

Thanks so much ! 

 
What kind of “stock” 289 cam do you have?
What type of ignition do you have?
Initial and total timing settings?
What elevation are you doing this?

Gaba has great write up of setting up Duraspark distributor too.

This information may help to troubleshoot.

UNFORTUNATELY i  cant answer about what cams i have .  i never open it except engine shop .
I have pertonix ignition 1 ( the simple magnetic swap ) 
I am on 6 initial timing  btc   , but my dumper anit got any further grades after 12     so i can t tell you total timing .
elevation is not an issue . i live flat at 111 foot high at sea level  

 

     Thread Starter
 

11/11/2019 3:31 PM  #8


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Are they the stock heads or were they rebuilt?  Sounds like weak springs to me.
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/11/2019 5:02 PM  #9


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

A stock hydraulic 289 cam is only going to give you about 5,000RPM.  You can rev it past that, but it isn't making and more power, just more noise, and risking hurting something.  Max power in these engines was at 4,800RPM I believe.

It should rev fairly easily to 5,000.  If it won't then I tend to agree that something is wrong.  It could be a lot of things though.  Timing could be off (are you sure TDC on balancer is really TDC?).  Fuel flow could be low.  Bad springs is another possibility as 6sally6 pointed out, or the cam could be wiped.  Flat tappet cams if not run with enough ZDDP in the oil can get wiped out fairly easily.  Check timing and fuel first.  If those are good take off the oil filter and cut it open and check for metal in it.  If there isn't a lot of metal in it then swap the valve springs.  Easiest fix to hardest. 

 

11/11/2019 6:30 PM  #10


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

P.S. The springs can be changed without removing the heads.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

11/11/2019 7:10 PM  #11


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

I noticed that you are tuning carburetor as well on your other topic.
Perhaps someone can suggest correct order to go about setting this up.
Kinda like a dog chasing its tail....if not done in a chronological order.

 

11/11/2019 7:29 PM  #12


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

6sally6 wrote:

Now 6sally6 would just jump on his bicycle and run over BOTH of them and declare himself the winner.('cause that's how I roll!)
You get the point.............right?
6sal6

 😂😂😂

 

11/11/2019 7:37 PM  #13


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

You can also be running out of fuel pump.  A compromised fuel pump will often support idle and lower rpm's but when you push the pedal to the floor you will reach an rpm level where it stops climbing and can start to pop and miss as it runs out of fuel.  Easy to change just in case but your symptoms sound more like an old engine and a lazy stock cam.  The old 390 in my truck is the same.  Pulls strong to about 3800 and then barely climbs.

You can change cams on a new engine without too many problems but on an old engine, changing the cam will quickly reveal the next weak link - springs, blow-by, head gaskets, etc.  If you want to do it right, it should be all part of a plan during a rebuild.

 

11/12/2019 12:51 AM  #14


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

thanks for last reply , they all have sense .  The engine shop just rebuild it one year ago but without changin springs .  I got the feelings that once repaired the springs , somerhing else will come out . 
I  am thinking about a crate new 331  or 347  .   All i miss is cash 

     Thread Starter
 

11/12/2019 2:40 AM  #15


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

If the bottom end is sound and they cleaned the heads properly, then you may indeed be able to do a cam swap if you select a cam that is compatible with your valves, etc., and not too wild.  Install the recommended springs, new lifters, etc., and you may get some improved enjoyment.  But, it is probably wiser to save your money for the engine of your dreams.  Be sure to check your fuel pump, however, as it may wake it up if you are running out of gas under higher loads/speeds.

 

11/12/2019 5:23 AM  #16


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

My thoughts are don't waste money on an engine that will not make you happy.  The 289 is a good engine, and can be built up to make good power, but its doing to be at high RPM.  Off the line its not going to have a lot of torque.  The intake, heads, cam, and valve train parts are about the same cost whether you buy them for a 289 or a 331, but the parts used for a 289 aren't going to be ideal for a 331, so I would advise against putting a top end on the 289 and trying to swap the bottom end out for a 331 at some point. 

On the other hand, learning how to fix what's wrong with the 289 can teach you a lot.  If you do the work yourself none of the things needed to fix it are expensive, especially compared to an engine swap.  If you get the 289 right its going to be worth a lot more if you sell it later to help pay for the new engine. 

 

11/12/2019 5:43 PM  #17


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Try this..........advance your timing to 12 degrees and see if it improves. If it rattles(spark knocks) when going up hill at low speed.....turn back to 10 degrees.
Tell us how it does!
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/13/2019 5:49 AM  #18


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

In terms of tuning my advice is always get the timing set first.  NEVER change fueling and timing at the same time.  When tuning you must only ever alter one variable at a time so you know what caused the change you see. 

 

11/16/2019 7:39 AM  #19


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

If you don't already have an AFR gauge installed, then now is a good time to install one.  With it you will be able to see your AFR real time.  If you are running out of fuel when you rev, then it will show up as going really lean.  The gauge I have installed is an AEM 30-0300 X-Series.  I like it.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/16/2019 10:24 AM  #20


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Rufus68 wrote:

If you don't already have an AFR gauge installed, then now is a good time to install one.  With it you will be able to see your AFR real time.  If you are running out of fuel when you rev, then it will show up as going really lean.  The gauge I have installed is an AEM 30-0300 X-Series.  I like it.

Maybe you could bring it to the MS Bash next April 23-25 (Bash at the Beach) Surf side Beach , SC.
We could hook-it-up & tune a few cars on Friday!?!! 
Let us know..........or send me a PM!
6sally6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/16/2019 12:02 PM  #21


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

I don't have it installed as a removable gauge.  I have the O2 sensor bung welded in the exhaust close to the manifold.  I know that for motorcycles, you can create an O2 sniffer that can be used to stick up in the exhaust pipe far enough to get a valid, or close enough, reading for tuning purposes; but, I'm not sure that you can really do that with a car exhaust.  Regardless, with the gauges less than $200, I think it is a worthwhile addition to the gauges for any carbureted car.  Seeing real time AFR readings provide useful information at unexpected times.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/17/2019 6:52 AM  #22


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

I've seen tailpipe wideband setups for cars.  My guess would be that they simply don't work as well, and probably don't work at all on vehicles with catalytic converters.  Most shops that tune have to be able to tune newer as well as older vehicles so they stick to the manifold or collector mounted wideband systems.  This also keeps cost on those systems lower since the demand is higher. 

 

11/17/2019 11:40 AM  #23


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

Rufus68 wrote:

I don't have it installed as a removable gauge.  I have the O2 sensor bung welded in the exhaust close to the manifold.  I know that for motorcycles, you can create an O2 sniffer that can be used to stick up in the exhaust pipe far enough to get a valid, or close enough, reading for tuning purposes; but, I'm not sure that you can really do that with a car exhaust.  Regardless, with the gauges less than $200, I think it is a worthwhile addition to the gauges for any carbureted car.  Seeing real time AFR readings provide useful information at unexpected times.

Yeah, OK butt...............what about the invite to the Bash?!   You know that still stands.
6sal6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/17/2019 5:56 PM  #24


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

TKOPerformance wrote:

I've seen tailpipe wideband setups for cars.  My guess would be that they simply don't work as well, and probably don't work at all on vehicles with catalytic converters.  Most shops that tune have to be able to tune newer as well as older vehicles so they stick to the manifold or collector mounted wideband systems.  This also keeps cost on those systems lower since the demand is higher. 

 
During the time I worked at the auto shop we had a machine they called a 4 gas analyzer. I had the ability to read the fuel mixture by striking a probe up the tail pipe. A similar gadget was used for the state emissions inspection. Now days they are nowhere to be found.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

11/18/2019 7:09 AM  #25


Re: high rev is just a question of cams ? or timing has little part in it

HudginJ3 wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

I've seen tailpipe wideband setups for cars.  My guess would be that they simply don't work as well, and probably don't work at all on vehicles with catalytic converters.  Most shops that tune have to be able to tune newer as well as older vehicles so they stick to the manifold or collector mounted wideband systems.  This also keeps cost on those systems lower since the demand is higher. 

 
During the time I worked at the auto shop we had a machine they called a 4 gas analyzer. I had the ability to read the fuel mixture by striking a probe up the tail pipe. A similar gadget was used for the state emissions inspection. Now days they are nowhere to be found.

Innovative makes one, but the cost is about twice what a bung mounted wideband costs.
 

 

Board footera


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