FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

11/26/2019 6:13 AM  #1


Solenoid

I know this has been discussed many times on here over the years and the general consensus is that the reproduction solenoids are crap. They randomly stick and I've replaced new ones.
Anyway... Is there an alternative to using one of these? Is there something else that can be fitted (without too much hassle) that will do the same job?
Mine randomly stuck the other day and popping the hood to give it a tap is just not cool...


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
 

11/26/2019 6:47 AM  #2


Re: Solenoid

You can still buy a Motorcraft part. Supposedly they are made in China now but hopefully Motorcraft management holds them to a higher standard of quality than the cheap brands.
Standard Motor Products is pretty good stuff also.

 

11/26/2019 7:17 AM  #3


Re: Solenoid

I'm using the 95 setup on mine. No solenoid, uses a relay.


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

11/26/2019 2:05 PM  #4


Re: Solenoid

Have you checked your starter to see if something may causing high current draw?
You just replaced battery recently?
What size wire from battery to solenoid?
And from solenoid to starter?
Checked for high resistance on cables?
Any questionable crimps or corrosion on cables?
Are you running headers?

This may help us troubleshoot possible root problems causing solenoid failures.

Dan

 

11/26/2019 2:11 PM  #5


Re: Solenoid

I don't use one anymore!!!!!!!!!
No Kidd'in...........the little replacement starter I have has the solenoid built on it.
To use TWO solenoids is redundancy!
6sally6
PS.....Unless you just like typing the word S-O-L-E-N-O-I-D?!


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/26/2019 5:24 PM  #6


Re: Solenoid

6sally6 wrote:

I don't use one anymore!!!!!!!!!
No Kidd'in...........the little replacement starter I have has the solenoid built on it.
To use TWO solenoids is redundancy!
6sally6
PS.....Unless you just like typing the word S-O-L-E-N-O-I-D?!

In aviation circles we call them a Starter Contactor. The S-O-L-E-N-O-I-D was the thingy on the starter that threw the starter gear to the flywheel. Some people mistakenly call this the Starter Bendix. 

My 39 Ford 9N tractor has a true bendix, no solenoid, no starter contactor. Mash the button that looks like a dimmer switch and off she goes. 
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

11/26/2019 5:58 PM  #7


Re: Solenoid

The way I understand it is this:

The starter solenoid we all know is simply a relay that happens to use an electromagnetic solenoid to complete the high amp circuit.  It is triggered by a low amp wire from the switch.  So it is just a relay to allow our switch wiring to be small.

Any starter circuit, like in the old tractor mentioned above, uses heavy wire run to a heavy duty starter switch.  So no relay needed since the full load of current needed by the starter is running through the switch.

Moving the starter relay onto the starter itself is only a matter of location.  As long as the switch has a small wire running to it and the starter itself pulling a heavy amp load, then there has to be a relay in the circuit.

Here's a drawing representing the internals of the relay we call a starter solenoid:

 


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/26/2019 6:02 PM  #8


Re: Solenoid

The starter bendix is not electrical.  It is the mechanism that spins a gear that engages the teeth in the flywheel for cranking and then disengages after the starter motor is shut off.  The gear that actually engages the flywheel is called the bendix gear.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/26/2019 6:38 PM  #9


Re: Solenoid

Rufus68 wrote:

The starter bendix is not electrical.  It is the mechanism that spins a gear that engages the teeth in the flywheel for cranking and then disengages after the starter motor is shut off.  The gear that actually engages the flywheel is called the bendix gear.

Exactly! My 39 Ford uses a Bendix gear.
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

11/26/2019 6:50 PM  #10


Re: Solenoid

I'm not sure what all the excitement was for because all our starters use an actual bendix gear.  The gear that engages the flywheel is the bendix gear.  That gear in your tractor is spun by an electric starter.  Same same. Only thing missing is a low amp switch as the starter switch so no starter relay.

Last edited by Rufus68 (11/26/2019 6:52 PM)


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/28/2019 5:41 AM  #11


Re: Solenoid

50vert wrote:

I'm using the 95 setup on mine. No solenoid, uses a relay.

I am not familiar with this setup...


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
     Thread Starter
 

11/28/2019 6:35 AM  #12


Re: Solenoid

Is it just a matter of fitting a new starter motor?
I reckon I have gone through three or four of these solenoids, so my faith in them is low.
I don't think there are any electrical issues. The solenoid just sticks.


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
     Thread Starter
 

11/28/2019 8:04 AM  #13


Re: Solenoid

Fox cars were the last to use a solenoid. SN95 were able to use a relay instead because of the solenoid on the PMGR starter. Battery positive to starter. S terminal from old solenoid to the signal on a relay, ground out of the relay. Fused 12V into the relay, then out to the solenoid on the starter.
Simples.
For an Automatic.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-4-9L-4-9-5-0L-5-0-5-8L-5-8-FORD-BRONCO-w-Auto-Trans-92-93-94-95-96-/362813336859?vxp=mtr&hash=item54795c2d1b
I'm not sure if there's a difference in starters between auto and 4speed in the 64 1/2.
The ebay seller has a reasonable name for starters and 3G alternators.

Last edited by 50vert (11/28/2019 9:29 AM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

11/28/2019 10:45 AM  #14


Re: Solenoid

Like RV6 suggested, you can get an aircraft one. $83.00. For $15.00 you can also get a "conformity certificate" and an "8130-3" form with it. But no warranty to speak of. 

Last edited by HudginJ3 (11/28/2019 10:47 AM)


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

11/28/2019 11:50 AM  #15


Re: Solenoid

Well, I would say since everyone of us owning old cars is not constantly complaining about the starter solenoids, then if your car really is eating starter solenoids then there must be a reason.  I didn't reread all the posts, but I think you said you've had 3 go bad.  I'd say buy a Motorcraft one and give it another go before going to more drastic measures.  If the starter solenoids were all crap, we would all be looking for an alternative.

Last edited by Rufus68 (11/28/2019 11:50 AM)


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/28/2019 12:34 PM  #16


Re: Solenoid

I was thinking about this while out driving just now.  If we were to assume that it is unlikely for 3 solenoids to fail, then we are left knowing that the same starter was being used with all 3 solenoids.  If the starter bendix gear were to be sticking some times and not retracting like it is supposed to, then it would be possible to question the solenoid as the fault.  Perhaps this is what is happening with your car.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

11/28/2019 6:08 PM  #17


Re: Solenoid

Rufus68 wrote:

I was thinking about this while out driving just now.  If we were to assume that it is unlikely for 3 solenoids to fail, then we are left knowing that the same starter was being used with all 3 solenoids.  If the starter bendix gear were to be sticking some times and not retracting like it is supposed to, then it would be possible to question the solenoid as the fault.  Perhaps this is what is happening with your car.

BINGO
A starter drawing far to many amps will lock the solenoid (our old cars). I know this too many times. On the other hand.
A started mounted solenoid will also fail to release if the battery is weak and crank the engine, The solenoid contacts can not open because the Bendix spring isn't strong enough to pull off the flywheel.

The perfect fail safe starter (if your old enough to remember) was the floor mounted starter peg to the right of the gas pedal.

 

11/28/2019 7:05 PM  #18


Re: Solenoid

Nos681 wrote:

Have you checked your starter to see if something may causing high current draw?
You just replaced battery recently?
What size wire from battery to solenoid?
And from solenoid to starter?
Checked for high resistance on cables?
Any questionable crimps or corrosion on cables?
Are you running headers?

This may help us troubleshoot possible root problems causing solenoid failures.

Dan

I agree with Red and Rufus a mechanical issue can cause a solenoid to stick. Dad would say it needs a new Bendix spring. I also agree  with Nos. When he says high resistance, were not talking thousands of ohms. A few ohms from a dirty connection can drop battery voltage at the starter a couple volts. Were only talking a 12 volt battery, a 3 volt drop is 25%. That means the starter will draw more amps to do the same work. And I don't know how often you drive your car, but if it isn't on a regular basis the battery can be low to start with. Just saying cleaning & checking all connection including block ground couldn't hurt. Maybe you already did, then as Gilda Radner would say "NEVER MIND".

If you are looking at Barry's suggestion of a newer starter; Do you have electronic ignition with a 12 volt coil? The newer starter does not give the option to bypass the run resister that lowers the coil voltage to 9 volts. There are work arounds for this, although I don't know if it is a necessity. Just thought it was worth mentioning. 


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

11/28/2019 8:02 PM  #19


Re: Solenoid

It’s always a mechanical problem 😜

As already stated by others, you may have a mechanical issue with the starter.  It could be something as simple as old grease, grime, dirt, or possible bearings.

Old grease is wonderful glue when old and cold. 😁

Water ingress into starter can freeze up and make starting difficult... to no start as well...And damage bearings too.

Degrease, lubricate, and see if it starts easier.

 

12/01/2019 5:46 AM  #20


Re: Solenoid

The issue that I'm having currently is random. I think the last time the solenoid stuck, it was after the car had sat about a week and a half. I can then go a while with no issues and then it will stick again and I have to tap it.
I still wonder if the solenoids are crap...
Each time it sticks, I lose all the presets in the radio.

Last edited by Stevo (12/01/2019 5:49 AM)


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
     Thread Starter
 

12/01/2019 9:24 AM  #21


Re: Solenoid

In my car, I've added a power socket under the dash like:

And I have a volt meter plugged into it like:

This alerted me to a failed alternator once before there were any other symptoms.  Perhaps something is going on with your voltage that this information might help with.

A socket: https://www.amazon.com/BreaDeep-Cigarette-Lighter-Waterproof-Motorcycle/dp/B014RD1OPU/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=12v+power+socket&qid=1575213416&sr=8-14

A voltmeter:  https://www.amazon.com/Zeltauto-Cigarette-Lighter-Digital-Voltmeter/dp/B00VL9JZ0K/ref=sr_1_8?crid=1TLQTY3A9Y6C6&keywords=cigarette+voltage+meter&qid=1575213823&sprefix=cigeratte+volt%2Caps%2C281&sr=8-8

 


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

12/03/2019 6:05 AM  #22


Re: Solenoid

What sort of life do you get out of starters and alternators? The alternator on my car would have to be 14 years old and the starter is about 10 years old.
I still think these solenoids are junk, but maybe there is more going on behind the scenes?


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
     Thread Starter
 

12/03/2019 7:26 AM  #23


Re: Solenoid

I'm sure the answer is more complicated than years.  There is also the component of corrosion to consider.  If the components sit for periods of time in a humid environment for example, those components will give issues sooner than if they were used in the same environment.  Starters that are regularly used are less likely to have the bendix gear stick than are starters that sit, etc.  So I don't really think the question of life span would have an answer that is useful to one car.  You would really just have to check the alternator and the starter to find what condition they are in.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

12/03/2019 8:39 AM  #24


Re: Solenoid

For starters and alternators, I buy new and they generally last years. I’ve had my starters rebuilt that failed in 3 months. I’ve bought rebuilt alternators that didn’t make the week!!

It doesn’t matter how good a warranty you have if the same part continually fails!!


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

12/03/2019 9:32 AM  #25


Re: Solenoid

Bolted to Floor wrote:

For starters and alternators, I buy new and they generally last years. I’ve had my starters rebuilt that failed in 3 months. I’ve bought rebuilt alternators that didn’t make the week!!

It doesn’t matter how good a warranty you have if the same part continually fails!!

Very true!!...some of these components(not necessarily a Mustang) are a royal pain-in-the-fanny to get to. Only wanna go through that every ten years or so.....not every 10 weeks!!
 
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.