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2/02/2020 12:12 PM  #1


timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

I have some trouble revving high , but i think i am making a mistake using the wrong port on carb . 
Now i am using the driver side port with full vacuum . I was wondering how much it suck when take out for initial timing.  Now i have some doubt to be attach at wrong port . 
Can someone tell me if is driver or passenger  port on edelbrock 500 to connect vacuum advance pipe ? 
Manual says :  passenger side if your distributor use timed advance 
                        driver side if it has full vacuum advance 
thanks again 

 

2/02/2020 1:23 PM  #2


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

I don't think the vacuum port matters for your trouble revving high. I prefer manifold vacuum as the engine runs slightly cooler at idle. Ported, or timed, vacuum was emissions related. 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/02/2020 4:22 PM  #3


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Edelbrock instructions state to use the port on passenger side for timed vacuum. The drivers side port is for manifold vacuum....

 

2/02/2020 5:19 PM  #4


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Do a google search and you will find loads and loads of links on this subject and there will never be a correct or consistent answer.  When troubleshooting, follow the instructions from the manufacturer to eliminate strange things - Josh-kebob told you the answer - use the ported or timed port.  This setting also tends to produce lower emissions.  Using manifold vacuum MAY keep the engine a little cooler when stuck in traffic in idle but on one of my builds in the past, it idled a little better but there was a "hole" when I punched it from an idle.  When I opened up the throttle, I lost manifold vacuum and the timing would drop off as a result of that.  It eventually caught up but I could feel it.  Some engines may do this and others may not.

So, rather than having 50 people (sometimes these posts do drag on) tell you what to do, do it yourself.  Using a timing light set the maximum mechanical timing at 3000 or 3500 RPM for your engine.  For many engines this will be approximately 35 degrees.  You cannot set you timing for best idle and expect it to provide best performance at high RPM unless you have set up your distributor properly.  Once you set max advance, drop it to idle.  Connect your vac advance hose the the timed port.  Set the idle speed and mixture screws tor best idle vacuum.  Drive the car - not high rpm full throttle runs - that comes later.  Instead as you drive see if the idle speed remains constant as the engine fully heats up.  See how it returns to idle when you depress the clutch - does it stall or run rough and then improve or does it just settle down?

Next, repeat the above steps but this time use the manifold vacuum port.  Set the idle speed and mixture screws for best vacuum and the repeat the drive.  How does it drive and idle?  How does it do when returning to idle when you push in the clutch?

Then ask yourself a question - Which do I (as in you and only you) prefer?  Answer that question and set it to your preferred port and move on.

As RV6 mentioned. timed and vacuum ports have nothing to do with any high RPM issues such as a miss.  At WOT your vacuum is essentially zero so there is no vacuum signal at the timed or manifold ports.  If you have a high RPM miss or if it is not pulling to your satisfaction you either don't have enough motor/cam to do it or your mixture is either rich or lean.  Both rich and lean can cause high RPM issues and the only way to know is to either take it to a dyno or install a O2 sensor.  You cannot guess on this.  You can't usually read plugs because you don't do extended (miles) of high RPM driving at consistent speeds and loads.  Also, once you begin to idle, the plugs will usually read what is happening at idle and not at high RPM.  An O2 sensor will tell you exactly where you are at and nobody sitting at a keyboard can tell you what jets or rods to use because every engine is unique.  You can get close by reading but final tuning needs real numbers.  You have been through multiple carbs over the years but it seems like you often have similar issues with each.  If you can accurately measure your mixture you can tune accurately.  If it still doesn't pull at high RPM then you need to consider cam, springs, the condition of the engine, etc.  No carb can overcome engine limitations.

 

2/03/2020 1:43 AM  #5


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

thanks ! You are always a great source of info . My doubt was related to advance timing so i was thinking had part in the game while going at high rpm .  I will try lean and rich  carb and see what happen .  Basically it runs good  but secondaries are misfiring or banging . The distributor is set at 6 btdc as initial timing . Cant read the total timing ( need a new damper)  . The O2 sensor was on my mind ...

     Thread Starter
 

2/03/2020 5:24 AM  #6


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Timing has nothing to do with getting to high RPM.  All your timing should be in by 3,000-3,500RPM, and at full throttle there's no vacuum, so the vacuum advance isn't doing anything. 

As for which port, timed vacuum means it only gets vacuum when you apply throttle.  The port is above the throttle blades.  Manifold vacuum has vacuum at all times.  The port is below the throttle blades.  Which should you use?  Whichever makes the car run better. 

If the engine won't rev its more likely a fuel problem, or you're expecting too much from a cam that's too small.  Crazy as it sounds, a mild cam in a 289 is only going to see like 5,000-5,500RPM.  They have a reputation for being a high reving engine, buts its built off the ones that had solid lifter cams.  With a stock cam I don't run mine past 5,000RPM.  Peak power is at 4,800 I believe. 

 

2/03/2020 9:57 AM  #7


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

No need for a fancy damper.  You will need to do your own math.  A typical 289 damper is 6-5/16" or approximately 160.5 mm.  Take your diameter (measure with a tape is fine) times PI (3.1416).  This is your circumference - or about 503.7 mm in this case.  Divide this by 360.  This gives you the mm per degree.  Multiply by 30 and you get  42 mm for 30 degrees.  Start at your zero mark on your damper and using string or a tape measure, put a mark 42 mm before zero for a 30 degree mark.  Then put another mark at 56 mm and this will be your 40 degree mark.  Now with the timing light check to see your total timing (with vac hose disconnected) compared to those marks.  Adjust distributor to fall in between which will be 35 degrees.  Now, also with the hose disconnected, see where your idle timing is.  For example, if it is 10 degrees, in the future, this is where you would set your timing at idle to get the proper max mechanical timing for your distributor.

While out used for typing correction fluid or some narrow reflective tape would be a good way to mark your damper.

All of the values were based off of a 6-5/16" damper. Make a simple spreadsheet and re-calculate if if your diameter is different.  A simple ratio work.  If your damper is 7", take 7/6.3125 and multiply that by the two numbers above of 42 and 56.  All you are trying to do is get in the ballpark so tape measure marks will be more than adequate for what your are trying to do for now.  It is more important to get your max mechanical timing right than your idle.  Today, for most distributors with 20 to 26 degrees of mechanical advance, 6 initial is a little low.  Many run 10 to 14 degrees with no problems and get better performance and slightly lower temps.

Let us know where your idle ends up after this.  Now that you know the actual timing, if you want to try 38 degrees max mechanical advance, you can take your known idle and add 3 degrees.  The range for 289 iron heads may fall between 32 and 38 degrees depending on your engine combo.  The internet doesn't know what your fuel is like and the condition of your engine.  This is why you must test your engine to see what it likes.

Don't start changing any springs, etc., until you know what you currently have.  Find your baseline and then you can investigate changes in the future.

You may want to do some research on valve float.  Valve float is sometimes confused with a fuel or timing related miss.  When you hit a certain RPM, the valve springs can't keep the lifters properly compressed and your valves won't fully close.  The engine won't pull past this RPM and if feels like a miss.  The older the engine, the springs start to lose stiffness and the RPM where float begins will drop.

Anyway, I digress.  Start with good timing settings.  I suggest getting your timing set before any more carb adjustments.  Right now you have two unknowns.  By getting the timing set, you will have only the mixture left to play with.

 

2/03/2020 10:35 AM  #8


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Or if you have room, measure the circumference of the damper, divide by 360 and multiply by 30 and 40.  Lots of ways to do this.

 

2/03/2020 10:54 AM  #9


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

GPatrick wrote:

Or if you have room, measure the circumference of the damper, divide by 360 and multiply by 30 and 40.  Lots of ways to do this.

OR just buy a stick-on timing tape!!  Under 20 bux American
6s6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/03/2020 11:10 AM  #10


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

DIY - free!

Or https://www.blocklayer.com/timing-tape.aspx

Last edited by GPatrick (2/03/2020 11:11 AM)

 

2/03/2020 11:42 AM  #11


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

I am installing a  replacement section of roof skin near the diver's 'A' pillar. Before I fill the spot weld holes, is there a sealant that can be applied between the new skin and the windshield frame?

 

2/03/2020 12:51 PM  #12


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Tommy - please open a new thread with your question.

 

2/03/2020 6:19 PM  #13


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Alessandro wrote:

thanks ! You are always a great source of info . My doubt was related to advance timing so i was thinking had part in the game while going at high rpm .  I will try lean and rich  carb and see what happen .  Basically it runs good  but secondaries are misfiring or banging . The distributor is set at 6 btdc as initial timing . Cant read the total timing ( need a new damper)  . The O2 sensor was on my mind ...

You can also use a dial back timing light, set the advance you want on the gun and it will flash later and allow you to just use the 0 mark as a reference. 

I would also verify that TDC on the balancer is actually TDC.  Do this with a piston stop.  Ford used three different pointer locations over the years, and its hard to know on a car this old who did what over 50 years.  I've seen mismatched dampers and pointers many times. 
 

 

2/09/2020 11:49 AM  #14


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

well , i defenetly give up with this carb .  I think there is someting wrong somewhere and i can't foucus it . 
Maybe With valves or push rod , or just timing or advance .
Pass one week on the edelbrock trying all my adjusting kit with rods and jet , without any better . Still have something going wrong at med / high rpm  .  Engine is stumbling , refuse pedal to metal  and sometimes one hard bang comes from driver side . Same side of a ticking noise that wont leave at any rpm . 
Also at idle i can hear that something is going wrong  ....Engine shakes erratic .... is not running as a perfect circle . something is wrong . 

Being exausted and frustated  i decided to move again to old 4100 , that six month ago was going good . 
Checked again timing at 6 btdc and take a ride . Same thing as edelbrock, same stumble at high rpm , same refuse to all pedal , same big bang sometimes .  

I am tired by all meanings and next week my car will go to repair shop and see what happens . 
next step will be selling adv

     Thread Starter
 

2/09/2020 2:09 PM  #15


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Ticking noise could be an exhaust leak. The leak could also allow air in under coast conditions. The combination of the two could allow for a nice loud bang out of the exhaust. 

Check the plug wires to make sure they are in good shape. Make sure 7 and 8 cross over each other and not run parallel. Ghost spark can be induced into #8 it the wires run parallel, especially under load.

At night pop the hood and see if you see any arching from the plug wires. My fathers truck ran crappy once and I did the night check of the wires. It looked like a lightning storm under the hood when running. New plug wires solved everything. 

Don't give up!
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/09/2020 2:52 PM  #16


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

I thought of something else. Last summer on a trip the little 289 just did not want to run. Idle was OK but any throttle while in gear caused it to buck and snort. Driving  down the highway was OK until a hill came and under even slight load it would buck and snort. I stopped in Alamosa Colorado and found shade where I could check things out. Nothing wrong that I could see. I did get home.

Problem turned out to be the vacuum advance unit in the distributor. Unplugged it would run OK. A new one was installed and fixed the problem.


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/10/2020 12:29 AM  #17


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

RV6 wrote:

I thought of something else. Last summer on a trip the little 289 just did not want to run. Idle was OK but any throttle while in gear caused it to buck and snort. Driving  down the highway was OK until a hill came and under even slight load it would buck and snort. I stopped in Alamosa Colorado and found shade where I could check things out. Nothing wrong that I could see. I did get home.

Problem turned out to be the vacuum advance unit in the distributor. Unplugged it would run OK. A new one was installed and fixed the problem.

 

I can try it . But many tells me that there is no vacum at high rpm , so what part has in this game ?  Other issue was the difference between this two carb. Edelbrock has a lot of vacuum , the 4100 has nothing from the pipe . this sound strange . 

 

     Thread Starter
 

2/10/2020 6:00 AM  #18


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

The 4100 probably only has a timed vacuum port.  Try opening the throttle a little bit and see if you have vacuum. 

With both carbs doing the same thing its not the carb.  How old is the fuel pump?  Engine mounted pump or electric?  How old is the fuel filter?  This sounds like a lean condition.  Thinking it may not be getting enough fuel flow to allow it to rev up. 

 

2/10/2020 10:31 AM  #19


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Ciao Alessandro,

If I were you I would start again from the beginning. Put rod, jets and spring (color) like 1405 is from origin. Then check the installation, I used timing port and my 1406 ran well. If you have automatic chocke, where do you get the positive from? not from the positive of the coil is better. Position the acceleration pump lever as from origin. How did you connect the PCV valve to the carburetor? I remember the rear port on the carburetor must be connected to the pcv on the valve cover. Check that the PCV is working properly. Check the carburetor gasket with intake is ok, if you have opened the carburettor check the gaskets again, you have opened it to change the jets. (It is to be done with caution so as not to break the gasket. When you close the carburetor there is no need to tighten the screws a lot, go to the bottom and give it a light tightening). Close the two screws of the air and April by two turns. Start the engine and bring it to temperature, turn the idle screw to raise the idle to 1500 rpm, close the passenger's air screw slowly until the engine starts to turn unbalanced, reopen it until it returns balanced and do the same with the other air screw, then lower the idle with the idle screw.
Also consider that we are in winter and the air has an important game in the carburetion.

 Then adjust the carburetion, it is a job to do and redo because it is influenced by the advance however if you have already made a basic advance do not touch it for the moment


 

 

2/10/2020 12:24 PM  #20


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Ok everyone can call me donkey starting from now .  I was doing step by step all suggestion given when a terrible idea comes to me ...  If was that thing that month ago i have placed in line with spark wire ... this stupid spark tester could give some false sparks ? or maybe low spark ... removed . Check all spark plug wire and find one no perfecty fit in top of spark .  Try it and bangs desappeard , car is runing and finally i can take this 3500/ 4000 rpm  .   At the end with two new  spark plug and a cable connected seems i can start again with edelbrock .
Probably the engine was running like a square circle because inside the spark pipe was an arc light  instead of connection .  
Sometimes needs to go to basics to understand instead banging the head to the wall thinking at the  worste issue .  In fact i can make the timing hundred times  ,  but i will never have result  if sparks and cable are not what should be . 
Tomorrow i will start again with edel  just to see who has the bigger head . 
Until i finish and satisfied you can call me spark-donkey ! 
Thanks all by now . next will brief on edel 

     Thread Starter
 

2/10/2020 12:33 PM  #21


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Good, glad it was something simple!  Don't worry, we have all done similar things on occasion.

By the way, I came across this article on manifold v. port advance while looking for something new else today. It's a good read purportedly written by a former GM engineer.

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/distributor-tuning-theory-part-1-a-59033.html#/topics/59033

 

2/10/2020 3:52 PM  #22


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Alessandro wrote:

Sometimes needs to go to basics to understand instead banging the head to the wall thinking at the  worste issue . 

Glad you found the problem. I have to remind myself to start at the simple fix instead of worst case scenario.  Cuz I pretty much always think it's the worst.
 


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/10/2020 5:45 PM  #23


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

Chaplin wrote:

Good, glad it was something simple! Don't worry, we have all done similar things on occasion.

By the way, I came across this article on manifold v. port advance while looking for something new else today. It's a good read purportedly written by a former GM engineer.

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/distributor-tuning-theory-part-1-a-59033.html#/topics/59033

it's a fantastic article ! thanks 

     Thread Starter
 

2/11/2020 8:42 AM  #24


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

As sayd before today i start again with edel , being sure that car is timed correctly with old carb , car is running good .
after swap , take a ride , and car goes like the day before , no bangs but refuse high rpm , boggin and goes intermittent ( only at high rev ) . 
Timing settled at 12 btdc
One strange thing differently happens between the carbs : with autolite i have no difference with or without pipe connected to vacuum canister . No change in timing .

Using edel and pipe connected to driver side ( manifold vaccum) i have a lot of vaccum and timing rise to 34/36  it idle  , when disconnected drop to 12 . 
There is a lot to learn for me , maybe there is still something that is not working properly . 

Now i will lean carb as much as i can and see what happen ,
then i will rich as much as i can to see if is really lean or can eat rich gas 
Then i will try with vaccum closed 

For all the rest .... i dont know 

     Thread Starter
 

2/11/2020 11:20 AM  #25


Re: timed vacuum or full vacuum advance with edelbrock ?

ok it runs !  Finally understand that was too rich also if was only +4% was enough to stumble . 
Moved to  minus 12%  try it with all vacuum port closed . Much better , no bangs , rev until 4000/4200 without asking more . 
Timing set at 12 btdc with total timing of 36 /38  More of that my timing light stop working so i cant be sharp ( stupid timing light ) . Vacuum canister register is set at 2 nd turn start from total unscrew .
Now goes good , but still have some to tune properly . Maybe springs or accel pump that now is lowest as possible. OR sqirter size .  
Probably there still enough room to lean but  adjust kit is missing some rods and jets , being so little i can understand . I say this because there is some gas smell around , no smoke but i can nose it . 
At the end i am running a 500 cmf  leaned at 12% , 

I want to thanks all for this cooperation , i have learn a lot  and more to come , BTW if wasn't for a doubt on sparks and plugs , probably  i will be on the car for long time trying to understand why is not running. 
bye ! 

     Thread Starter
 

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