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Bench bleeding the master cylinder, tomorrow then a fast install on the master cylinder. I will try to gravity bleed
the brakes first,if I get lucky this should work. When I did the manual brakes 20 years ago, I gravity bleed them
I hit the pedal 2 times, full pedal. When I did the power drum brakes (booster, new master cylinder),I ended up
bench bleeding the master cylinder 2 or 3 times,before I got a good pedal.Now with the new master cylinder
and 4 piston front disc brake conversion I'm not sure how I'm to bleed them if the gravity bleeding doesn't work. With
the engine out I have no vacuum source. Just wondering if I try to bleed pushing on the power booster which
will be super hard (no vacuum), will it hurt the booster or should I wait to bleed the brakes when the engine is
installed and running? I think changing the booster and removing the clutch brake pedal assembly has to be for
me 2 jobs I don't want to do twice.As I told MS I tend to over think things sometimes. If someone has come up
against this PLEASE LET ME KNOW! mustang stu
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Its not that hard. I never bleed brakes with the engine running. Just go RR, LR, RF, LF and hook a section of 3/16" clear vinyl tubing to the bleeder with it cracked. Put the end in a clear jar, plastic bottle, etc. with enough clean brake fluid to cover the end of the hose. Then start pumping. Probably 20-30 strokes at each bleeder will have all the air out. I recommend tapping on the calipers with a plastic mallet while doing this to get all the trapped air out. The 4 piston calipers can be a paint to bleed. That should get you real close, maybe even perfect. If not perfect after driving just go through it again, but you can drop down to 5-10 strokes per bleeder. Check the reservoir after 15 strokes and refill. Drums move a lot less fluid, so you can probably get 20-25 without having to worry about refilling, but the calipers move a lot so be cautious.
I've never had any luck gravity bleeding anything. This method has ALWAYS worked on all braking systems and clutches.
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In theory gravity bleeding should work. I have done the pedal pump method (with wife's help), but prefer pressure bleeding or suction bleeding. I'm usually by myself so the suction bleeding with a Mityvac is how I do it 95.639% of the time. The problem a lot of people have with the suction method is that once the bleeder is open it will allow air in past the threads so the suction line is never bubble free; how do you know when to stop. I pull two little Mityvac jars full for each brake and have never had a problem with air in the system. For all methods, keep the master cylinder full.
On airplanes we bleed the opposite way. The fluid is pumped in at the caliper and forced upwards through the master cylinders (could be 2 or 4 of them) carrying the air upwards instead of trying to force it down. I have never tried this on a automobile.
On a side note, I have never bench bled a master cylinder. I only learned of bench bleeding when the world opened up via the internet.
Last edited by RV6 (3/02/2020 5:37 PM)
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Yes, in theory it should work. I've just never seen theory meet reality in my garage. I think its possible for the system to be air bound if its empty, and this is why it doesn't work, at least on an empty system.
I can't think of a reason reverse pressure bleeding wouldn't work on an older car, but it would be disastrous on anything with ABS.
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Great read, one question. On my 65 I have pumped the pedal with a helper for a full quart and have vac bleed a second quart. I even taped the calipers with a rubber mallet the next morning while vac bleeding, did I get all the air out because I have never had a hard pedal.
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Gravity bleeding is a thing I learned on this forum. It is my favorite method.
Bench bleed the mc first.
Do not install the mc lid while gravity bleeding.
Do in order LR, RR, RF, LF , or just open all four at once and keep the mc filled as they all drain.
Use clear tubing from each bleeder so you can see when air is gone.
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I think the rear before the front thing is a leftover from the single chamber cylinder days. Can't see a reason why it'd be necessary on a dual chamber cylinder. Been wrong before though.
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50vert wrote:
I think the rear before the front thing is a leftover from the single chamber cylinder days. Can't see a reason why it'd be necessary on a dual chamber cylinder. Been wrong before though.
I can't speak for all vehicles, but I have gone out of order before and braking wasn't really right. The fronts came on too early, seeming to indicate either an imbalance or that there was still air in the rear portion of the system. Bleeding in the correct order fixed the issue. I've certainly changed a caliper, wheel cylinder, etc. and only bled the one I changed with no ill effects. Mostly that was due to fear the other bleeders would break if I tried to crack them open. On say a Japanese vehicle where I know all the bleeders will work I'd still bleed the entire system in order even for work done at just one wheel, though I'd purge most of the air from that one wheel first, then go in order.
FWIW, some vehicles with split diagonal ABS must be bled in a different order. My WRX is like that. Typically your FSM will give the bleeding order.
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Cab4word67 wrote:
Great read, one question. On my 65 I have pumped the pedal with a helper for a full quart and have vac bleed a second quart. I even taped the calipers with a rubber mallet the next morning while vac bleeding, did I get all the air out because I have never had a hard pedal.
Did you bench bleed the master?
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OK Im driving the car now and have a weird problem. this has done it when backing into the garage and pulling into a parking spot Sunday and this morning right after slowing down to turn off a main street. This is it the car shuts down for a split second, not off but kinda like someone turned the key for just a split sec, almost like I took all the air from it. I am getting my booster vac from the same place as the tranny. Car has never done this till I added the power brakes. IDEAS please.
Chris
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Run the power brake vacuum from a port directly into one of the intake runners. Take the tranny vacuum off the port under the carb. Your vacuum setup should not really cause any issues, but the way I described is how I always do them without problems.
And, only related to the original question... The self-adjusters on your rear drum brakes only work when backing up and applying brakes in reverse. Right after a new brake job, make a dozen or so stops with a fairly firm brake application in reverse to let the adjusters get the rear shoes adjusted properly. This usually firms up a brake pedal a good amount. After your new front pads bed to the rotors, it should improve the pedal firmness as well. DO NOT go out and try a panic stop to see how well your new disc brakes work. Doing so almost always guarantees you will be replacing pads before you ever have decent brakes again.
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I always break pads in as follows: 5 low effort stops from 50mph with 5 minutes cooling between. 5 medium effort stops from 50mph with 10 minutes cooling between. 5 high effort (not locked up) stops from 50mph with 15 minutes cooling in between. Or as close as I can reasonably get to that. I've found not only do the brakes work better but they also last longer. I went from an average pad life of 20k on my K5 to 35k just by doing this. Same pads, and 3 brake jobs each way to pretty much even out any other reason as to why.
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Wow i just drove around the neighborhood and made easy stops from 25, 10 times then when out and made 5-6 med stops from 35 . i haven't tried to go over 40 and stop yet. Drove to work today in town top speed 40 but only stopped 4 time each way. Maybe I should go try your method. The car does stop
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Don’t forget adjusters only work when braking while backing up.
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Ok here is the question. On my 65 with stock 289, C 4 and a new disc brake conversion in front with 4 piston calipers. Approximately 300 miles now on the brakes. The rear pressure adjustment is where the backs slightly lock up and skid at hard stop. If one slams on the brakes at 40 MPH will the front lock up or just dive hard and stop. Tires are new 235 x60x 15 TAs.
here is my comparison. My 67 C-10 short stepside 2 wheel drive with 36" tall 15" wide tires on 15x10 steel rims and 2 piston calipers will almost lock up every time and that is a lot of rolling mass.
Am I just paranoid because of the 2" travel in the pedal?
Has anyone else done the conversion?
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Slamming on the brakes at speed with brand new pads and shoes is the most sure fire way to destroy the pads and shoes. They must be bedded in over several hundred miles to avoid ruining them Immediately.
Pad materials on most “lifetime warranty” pads are typically so hard they do not stop as well as the cheapo pads.
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OK then I will take it easy as I only have tried this one time sofar
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Years ago the manufacturers made pads softer to save the rotors, so they could be turned 3-4 times before being too thin and needing to be replaced. Nowadays the rotors are considered consumable, and its rare to find a place that even turns them anymore. Most shops either replace the rotors during a brake job, or just slap new pads on the old rotors so long as there was no customer complaint about a pulse or vibration from the pedal during braking. The high end pads are now very hard, typically ceramic. On something like my DD I buy the ambulance service pads because they last the longest, and I know the rotors are getting replaced when I do them anyway. On the fun cars I usually go with something like EBC or Hawk pads because they stop the best. DBA rotors are awesome if they are available for the application. Made in Oz, not China. Powerstop rotors are also decent.
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I have had success bench bleeding as well as “on car bench bleeding”.
Same process but mounted in car.
This was with single jar with factory power drum brake booster with Granada calipers and proportioning valve.
Just as successful with MS booster conversion using 2001 v6 Mustang master and rear Wilwood proportioning valve (single in and single out).
Within last 10 years, I started using gravity bleeding system.
Usually...almost always...just me, myself, and I are working on the car.😜
I have sectionalized during bleeding process as well.
I have bled system at junction block, proportioning valve, Tee, hardline/flex junctions, and caliper.
Not every time, just when filling system for first time or if in question about trapped air.
As mentioned earlier, opening and closing bleeder screw at caliper will allow bubbles.
I have placed Teflon tape/paste on bleeder screw during bleeding to prevent/minimize that.
When done bleeding, remove the tape off threads, and install bleeder.
New bleeder screws usually have a sealant on them, but it wears off and allows air after cycling open/closed.
I did notice with the v6 Mustang master, I can place cap on and it will only allow a small amount of gravity bleeding before it nearly stops due to the rubber on cap.
For full on bleeding, cap is removed.
Kinda neat and handy to me.
I have wasted less brake fluid using this process.
Some may think it’s slow, it’s plenty fast for me...usually.
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Oreilly's sells spring loaded check valves. Just crack open the check valve one at a time and pump the brake petal. The spring loaded check valve opens allowing the air and brake fluid out. Release the brake petal and the check valve closes not allowing air in. Simple and quick. Later Dude
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Dan, you bring up a very valid point about gravity bleeding. It does not work if the cap or lid is on the master cylinder!
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