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3/26/2020 7:22 PM  #1


AFR gauge...

I have been fighting an AEM AFR gauge since mid February.  Bought one and it only would read full lean.  Called AEM...bad batch, "we'll send a new one."  Got that and it only reads full lean.  Called AEM, "Well, we tested that before we sent it."  Can't help that, it don't work!  Sent it and the original one back to AEM.  Three weeks later got a package from FedEx...my second gauge and a different wideband sensor.  Hooked it up and ......Wow, it reads full lean, but nothing else.

Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong.  I mean I've been wiring cars for over 55 years and there are only two wires...one red positive, one black negative...to connect this thing to the car but I could be doing something wrong...it's possible.  Of the parts they have sent I have tested every combination of gauges and sensors and wiring harnesses in the car and on the bench and followed all of there test instructions. 
Butttttt...all they will read it full lean.

Any ideas?


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

3/26/2020 7:48 PM  #2


Re: AFR gauge...

The AEM that I have has two plugs that go into the back of it. I haven't tried but it looks like you can reverse them and put them in the wrong position unless your carefull. Mine read an average of 13.2 - 13.5 jumping all over the place. Today I put the next smaller jets in my carb and now it reads 13.4 - 13.6 still jumping all over the place. I don't know if it's broken or not. I think a jet change would make a bigger difference in the reading or AFR.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

3/26/2020 8:12 PM  #3


Re: AFR gauge...

Where in the system is the o2 sensor located? The location is supposed to be important.
My sensors are located on the tri-y header about 3 inches ahead of the  flange. I have Bosch o2 sensors on on each header connected to a DPDT switch to check each side.
Bosch sensors 780c  constant temp to operate, Yours might be running cool, header wrap maybe?


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

3/26/2020 8:15 PM  #4


Re: AFR gauge...

Yeah Doug with a carb the gauge will jump around quite a bit so you kind of have to figure an average.  At wide open throttle it should be more steady and if you have a nice flat road and cruise control you can probably get a more stead read at steady state.  EFI should read fairly steady Stoic on cruise control and will attempt to hit the programmed AFR at WOT.  But having the gauge makes the WOT tuning much easier.

Mine also had two connectors...a four pin and a six pin and they won't interchange.

BB

Last edited by Bullet Bob (3/26/2020 8:17 PM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

3/26/2020 8:25 PM  #5


Re: AFR gauge...

Rudi, this is a Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor and has a heater built in.  Instruction say to mount it at least 18" from the rear port and to clock it so as to not be near the bottom of the pipe.  Mine is mounted at 23" from the port and clocked at about the two o'clock position.  They say to test the sender by having it out of the car but connected, then wrapping it in a rag saturated with "BrakeClean".  That should make it go from full lean in free air to full rich.  I've done that with two different gauges and three different sensors connected to two different supplied harnesses both in the car and on the bench directly connected to a fully charged battery and with the tech guy on the phone.  NO JOY.

I'm about ready to see about getting my $$ back and trying a different breed.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

3/26/2020 9:15 PM  #6


Re: AFR gauge...

Weird thing is my sensors are mounted about minus 15 degrees,works just fine, I'm carbed though.
 Obviously FI has to be much more accurate.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

3/27/2020 9:41 AM  #7


Re: AFR gauge...

I guess the good news is you must be getting outta this world gas mileage!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

3/27/2020 9:43 AM  #8


Re: AFR gauge...

MS wrote:

I guess the good news is you must be getting outta this world gas mileage!

True, butt the price of pistons keeps going up.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2020 2:10 PM  #9


Re: AFR gauge...

Bob...
How many wires does that O2 sensor have?

Have you tried all of the combinations on the sensor?

Yet again, wires might be crossed going into gauge?

Wideband or regular narrow band sensor?

What model afr gauge are you using?

I would set up entire assembly and see if you could place O2 sensor into an exhaust system temporarily of a small engine or vehicle or tractor etc. and play/calibrate that way you don’t damage the engine in Mustang.

BBQ smoker maybe?
Just some ideas to see if it even works.
I have not messed around with any standalone gauge.

Last edited by Nos681 (4/07/2020 2:31 PM)

 

4/07/2020 3:09 PM  #10


Re: AFR gauge...

Bob, is this the one you have? https://www.aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/30-0300.pdf

Could it by chance be in lambda and always reading 1.0? Maybe change it over to AFR?

Or is it always reading like 20:1 or something?

 

4/07/2020 4:24 PM  #11


Re: AFR gauge...

The pinout is as follows:

1 - WBC pump (red)
2 -  WBC com (yellow)
3 - heater ground (white)
4 - heater power (gray)
5 -
6 -  WBC cell (black)

Now, here's a question, is it supposed to be using the 4.9?  The 4.2 looks almost identical and is also a 6 pin connector, but they are not pinned the same, nor are the controllers the same.  I've had good luck with AEM gauges over the years so it sounds like something is off, especially since you've had several all do the same thing. 

I would see if AEM can send you a schematic or at least verify pinout for the sensor. 

 

4/07/2020 8:14 PM  #12


Re: AFR gauge...

This is an AEM 30-4110 with the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor.  I've been back and forth with AEM twice.  Have tested two different gauges with three different sensors on two different wire harnesses.  All combinations behave the same way:  On power up they indicate 14.7 (1.0) for a couple of seconds.  Then...apparently as the sensor heats up...the gauge steps right on up to full lean (18.5 and 1.25) and then displays the three bars. 
This is the behavior in the car and on the bench when performing AME's recommended "rag test" with a rag saturated with BrakeKleen...Sal loves that stuff but it ain't workin' here.
I have rung out the six pin harness from the sensor to the gauge but I don't have a skizzy.  Butt (TS&T), like I said, I got the same behavior with two different harnesses.  I have checked voltage to the gauge...never less than 12.3.  I have checked resistance to ground from the gauge to the negative post of the battery.... 0.9 ohm.
I noticed that red can BrakeKleen is "non-flamable and got to thinking that maybe that changed since AEM made their video so I tried the rag-test with gasoline....no joy but now my shop stinks like gas.  I used to like the smell of gas but now it just stinks.
I will say that none of the sensors they sent were in an original Bosch box...all came with the gauge.  And, I don't recall seeing any ID on the sensors as to model ie. 4.2 or 4.9.  The gauge has an analog and digital readout and can be set to display AFR or Lambda in the digital section and I have tried both settings...again, no joy.  I have driven the car thinking that it needed a road trip and it just displayed full lean with no change. 
Right now I have an email off to Modern Auto Performance, where I bought the thing, detailing what I've been through and requesting an RA.  They have closed their retail store but apparently have bodies to take care of online orders and tech questions.
I've been diddleing around with this for two months now so I can have a tool to help me do some EFI tuning...not required but definitely easier.  
If I don't get some success pretty soon I'm likely to become upset.
Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I will see if I can find a skizzy and also check for the correct sensor.  The instructions warn against other Bosch six-pin sensors and indicate that the plug is unique for the 4.9.
If I could make the damned thing work on the bench I would suck it up and try to determine what I have done wrong on the install, but hell, there are only two wires to connect to the car...one red 12V...and one black...ground, and I've verified about ten times that they are properly laid down. 

BB1
 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2020 8:23 PM  #13


Re: AFR gauge...

HudginJ3 wrote:

The AEM that I have has two plugs that go into the back of it. I haven't tried but it looks like you can reverse them and put them in the wrong position unless your carefull. Mine read an average of 13.2 - 13.5 jumping all over the place. Today I put the next smaller jets in my carb and now it reads 13.4 - 13.6 still jumping all over the place. I don't know if it's broken or not. I think a jet change would make a bigger difference in the reading or AFR.

Hey Doug, are you  running an EB pot?  If so, what Jets did you change to and from.  I have a spreadsheet I ginned up that calculates the percent change between jet/rod combos.  Looks like your change was just over 1.5 %.  I'd like to stuff those jets/rods in my spreadsheet and see what it spits out.

BB1


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2020 10:38 PM  #14


Re: AFR gauge...

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/avm-30-4110.pdf

After reading the instructions for use with just the gauge by itself.
Sounds like it should be easy.

Red+
Black-
White and blue just tape up individually

Then connect sensor.
Then select P0 (afr) or P1 (lambda)...both use 0-5volts

After two months of this?
You my friend have more patience than I would.
Especially after reading instructions.

We’re they all made on Friday or Monday? 😜

Send it back.
Sorry pal.

Last edited by Nos681 (4/07/2020 10:42 PM)

 

4/08/2020 5:37 AM  #15


Re: AFR gauge...

The sensors are purchased from Bosch in bulk.  As a thought, have you tried contacting Bosch?

Something is clearly off since you can't get it to bench test right.

I believe 2+2 is still available in the original formulation.  The problem with the new Brake Kleen is they have removed most of the VOCs due to EPA restrictions.  I buy it by the case, but honestly don't expect much from it at this point.

 

4/08/2020 8:21 AM  #16


Re: AFR gauge...

Well been doing a bit of research and it seems there are a lot of folks highly pissed over this item.  Lots of DOA reports with dissatisfaction over AEM responses.  One guy says he finally bought a 17212 Bosch sensor at O'Reilys and that fixed it.  From what I can find, the 17212 is the LSU 4.2 and the 17025 is the 4.9.  AEM says the 4.2 will not fit the connector and will not work with the 30-4110 gauge/controller.

About to try a different brand.  Maybe I'll get my $$ back....maybe not. 
Starting to get miffed!

BB1


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2020 9:25 AM  #17


Re: AFR gauge...

I wonder if the 0-5v output is working? Although it seems you've thoroughly tested every aspect and are just the victim of AEM cr@p... 

 

4/08/2020 9:41 AM  #18


Re: AFR gauge...



Found an actual photo of the Bosch 17212 on eBay.
Looks like the correct plug for application.
Don’t know about the pinout.
Hope this helps.

Appears to be used with Dodge diesels.

Perhaps you could take resistance measurements from one locally and compare to your sensor.
Maybe at factory it was pinned incorrectly.

Last edited by Nos681 (4/08/2020 9:45 AM)

 

4/08/2020 9:44 AM  #19


Re: AFR gauge...

Raymond_B wrote:

I wonder if the 0-5v output is working? Although it seems you've thoroughly tested every aspect and are just the victim of AEM cr@p... 

You know Raymond, I was about to test that the other day and didn't do it.  If it is working that would at least let me feed real time data into TunerPro.....hmmmmm, something else to test.  Thanks.

BB1


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2020 9:48 AM  #20


Re: AFR gauge...

Nos681 wrote:



Found an actual photo of the Bosch 17212 on eBay.
Looks like the correct plug for application.
Don’t know about the pinout.
Hope this helps.

Appears to be used with Dodge diesels.

Perhaps you could take resistance measurements from one locally and compare to your sensor.
Maybe at factory it was pinned incorrectly.

That will not fit the connector on the 4.9 harness.  The 4.9 connector is squared off at one end and according to AEM it needs a different controller.  I don't know what that guy on Amazon was talking about...maybe he just bought a replacement  17025 (LSU 4.9) and got the number confused with the 17212. 

BB1
 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2020 9:52 AM  #21


Re: AFR gauge...

Got an email in response to me note to Modern Auto Performance.  They apparently read my page long dissertation and are at least thinking about doing something....waiting with bated breath.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2020 10:26 AM  #22


Re: AFR gauge...





They might be different sizes too possibly or different kinda pins.

Last edited by Nos681 (4/08/2020 10:29 AM)

 

4/08/2020 12:05 PM  #23


Re: AFR gauge...

Looks like a round peg in a square  hole.
Reminds me of Chevy trucks , round tire in a square wheel well.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

4/08/2020 3:26 PM  #24


Re: AFR gauge...

The Diesels use a different sensor.  It should have a "D" suffix.  Diesels need a wideband type sensor because they can run extremely lean AF ratios (100:1 at idle), but this extreme variation in AF ratios requires a slightly different sensor (they can hit 20:1 or less under high load situations). 

 

4/08/2020 3:45 PM  #25


Re: AFR gauge...

In my searching, this seems to be a very common problem with AEM stuff killing sensors. Why, I've no idea.
I've got a Innovate LC-1, no gauge, that I'll monitor with software.


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

Board footera


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