| ||
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for: FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events |
Offline
I know the debate between mechanical vs Electrcal fans, and pros and cons. My question is true power consumption and is there a benifit with one over the other. I did a 3g alternator conversion some time back. What I have noticed is when my fans (Ford contour dual fans) turn off on, my RPMs drop about 200-250 RPMs. So the power load from the alternator may actually be more than what power it would take to turn a mechanical fan, or less with a good clutch fan like on a stock Fox body 5.0.
Offline
What you're experiencing is the inrush, I.E. the fans require a large current to turn on, but once on it will drop. For example, a fan that needs 30A while running 100% might need in excess of 60A to start. You should get the specs of your fans to see.
Do you have a fan controller? If not a good quality one with a soft start will eliminate what you are seeing. There's all kinds out there so beware, I think I've posted this before, maybe in one of your threads, but I really like the controllers from Autocoolguy. They're bulky, but built like a tank and he's great to deal with.
Offline
I agree and understand what you’re stating concerning inrush, you can hear the motor when fans turn on and that last for a split second but the RPMs remain lower until the fans are turned off and then the RPMs come back up 200.
I don’t have a controller, I just have each fan on a relay and each relay connected to a intake mounted temp switch. Both fans come on at the same time and at 100%.
Offline
I mean honestly if everything wiring wise is OK and the car doesn't stumble or die, then you're good. If you have a clamp type DC voltmeter you could check the inrush of each fan. A buddy of mine is having to go to soft start because it almost kills his truck when the fans (dual Windstars) come on. He had access to a nice clamp DC voltmeter and we saw it first hand how high the inrush was, but it did settle down to quite a bit lower amp draw once the fans got past the initial start.
I think the actual HP gain or loss would probably be a wash, but ti would be interesting to see how much HP that initial start is!
Last edited by Raymond_B (4/02/2020 7:33 PM)
Offline
Well..............the electric fan (s) don't run all the time.......most don't even run MOST of the time! When that's figured into the equation I think the electric fans may draw less power.
Minimal HP savings over mechanical fan. Like the difference between long tubes and mid-length headers. Sorta
6sal6
Offline
I highly recommend getting the Autocoolguy controller. i had dual relays for a short time and after installing the Autocoolguy controller, and love it by the way. i opened up my relays and one had started to burn a pitt just like a set of points on a car would over time. Read his reviews and read the reviews from the other controller companies. autocoolguy.com
Offline
With dual fans you should be using some kind of controller. Turning both fans on full at the same time is almost certainly your issue. Two fans starting could easily draw 60 amps or more, and depending on which 3G you have you may be using 2/3 of the alternator's output to start the fans.
As far as power draw goes, a regular fan takes 20-25HP to run. A clutch fan drops that down when the clutch isn't locked, but it still probably draws 5-10HP. A flex fan is supposed to flatten out and eat less power at higher speeds, but the debate over electric/mechanical aside I'm betting no one is going to recommend one of those.
An electric by contrast draws about zip. Another thing I'd consider is how that 3G is wired. If its set up as a "one wire" alternator that's also an issue. Those setups always have issues with high loads at idle because they lack a proper feedback circuit, so they don't adjust well to instantaneous changes in load.
Offline
As some of you know from my other post, I built this 68 8 years ago and mistakenly sold it. I was fortunate enough to recently get it back, and just as I had sold it. Now I have been going through it end to end, and some of that has made question some of the decisions I made back when I built it. I am questioning the use of electric fans for a car that I want to be as reliable as possible. I had always had issues with getting the fans to come on at a temp I liked. Have tried several temp switches and all have been a little flaky.
Offline
I'm not restarting the debate, but all I'll say is that every single new car and light duty truck that comes off the line today has an electric fan or fans. The OEMs wouldn't do that if they were a liability. So long as you use an OEM fan or one built to OEM specs the fan itself will not be an issue as far as reliability. Electric fans get a bad rep from cheap ones not built to OEM standards. I chose a SPAL fan for my '67 for this exact reason.
Looks like you got the 130 amp version of the 3G. The conversion setup is close to what I used for mine, so I don't think that's your issue. I'd pin the issue on the way the fans are controlled.
Offline
I am running contour fans no problem with bolt spike but I have it set up on a 3 relay system with 2 adjustable thermostats one for low, one for high. Both fans are wired in series on the low, then when the high both fans get full power. I will post up the schematic of anyone is interested
Offline
Offline
I agree with those that said you should have some kind of controller that brings the fans on separate. Other than a second or two when the fan first kicks on, I believe the electric fan eats less HP. Probably why new cars use them, eat lees power save gas.You may even try unplugging one of those fans and see how that works. Put an emergency over ride manual switch on it.
Offline
Yes, always have an override switch. That's a must. If a sender or something else fails that ensures you can still run the fans. In a dual system you may want to have two switches, once for each fan to avoid the large initial draw. That way you can flick one on, then the other if needed.
It doesn't look like you have AC, but its worth mentioning, if you plan to add it in the future, that you need at least one fan to come on with the compressor. Otherwise you risk blowing something up when the car is sitting with no air moving through the condenser.
Offline
Pray all is well The good part of the fan controller failsafe part of cooling concepts fan controller is that it will stay on high. Even when the key is off Lol 1 fan two speeds when both of the power leads on the fan see power it goes on high real quiet fan pulls a lot of air lasted only 8 years before the bearing started making a little noise only need 2 5/8 clearance it comes on at 180 low speed 190 kicks on high or when the A//C request signal but it can control 2 fans as well
Last edited by Coupedaddy (4/04/2020 9:47 AM)
Offline
bearcat wrote:
I am running contour fans no problem with bolt spike but I have it set up on a 3 relay system with 2 adjustable thermostats one for low, one for high. Both fans are wired in series on the low, then when the high both fans get full power. I will post up the schematic of anyone is interested
I would be interested in your schematic, but also want to know the advantage of running them independently. I have the Contour fans installed and don't see any RPM drop. When the fans turned on my volts went down to 12 with the A/C and headlights on. Probably would be less with the wipers on so at this moment I'm in the process of installing a 3G using the PA Performance wiring kit. I don't know yet if I will have generated the RPM drop.
Offline
To answer your original question, "how much HP does a cooling fan draw?" The formula for Power is P=IE, where P is power in watts, I is the current draw in amps, and E is the applied voltage. One HP is equal to 740 Watts. So if, as mentioned, your fans pull 60 amps at start and your charging system is regulating to around 14 volts...(Ford used to reg. the generator systems to 14.6 V but I'm not sure what the newer systems regulate to. My VM in the Heap reads about 13.8 at normal cruise)...so you can multiply 14 times 60 for 840 Watts, then divide by 740 and end up with 1.135 HP at fan start.
If they pull 30 amps running then that works out to .568 HP.
BB1
Offline
20-25 hp to run a mechanical fan
Show me the numbers!
Offline
TKOPerformance wrote:
Yes, always have an override switch. That's a must. If a sender or something else fails that ensures you can still run the fans. In a dual system you may want to have two switches, once for each fan to avoid the large initial draw. That way you can flick one on, then the other if needed.
It doesn't look like you have AC, but its worth mentioning, if you plan to add it in the future, that you need at least one fan to come on with the compressor. Otherwise you risk blowing something up when the car is sitting with no air moving through the condenser.
Just wanted to share with my Vintage Air AC system the heater fan switch is not used, so that is my cooling over ride switch. im also using Autocoolguy
Offline
I too would like to see a schematic if how some of you are controlling them. I can’t get the temp switch to work so I’m manually turning both on at 100% through two relays. I need to figure out which controller to use.
I can’t help but wonder if all the extra components are worth it over a good clutch/fan?
Offline
Rudi wrote:
20-25 hp to run a mechanical fan
Show me the numbers!
Car Craft did a fan shootout dyno test in May 2000 comparing an electric Black Magic, and a couple different OE setups. The electric made 494 HP, the best OE clutch system made 287, and an OE 4 blade (no clutch) made 473. A six blade fan without a clutch only made 449.
Offline
That “may” be true on a test stand but does not take into consideration the varying positive static inlet pressures of a forward moving vehicle.
As a vehicle speed increases the inlet velocity of air will eventually equal the output of the fan which then should draw no horse power. Horse power needs will increase below that speed and theoretically, at speeds above that point the fan is making power, like a windmill.
That being said I don’t believe that 20-25 hp loss is accurate in a real world situation.
Last edited by Rudi (4/04/2020 5:59 PM)
Offline
Here's an interesting real world study. Its not done from a power standpoint per se, but it does show a marked improvement in fuel economy in large trucks by switching from a single mechanical to multiple electric cooling fans. Improved fuel economy means the engine is using less fuel and thus more efficient, and whether we choose to view this as an "increase" in power or a "reduction" in parasitic load the end result is the same.
Offline
This has been an interesting post,I will add one thing to the discussion .The 2019 Ford ranger has a belt driven can .I have not researched yet .Not sure but it may have something to do with the vacuum pump it has two hoses coming out of the drive system .
Offline
Mack (Volvo now days) and that model is a poor example. It uses a very small rad to fit under it's low hood profile. It uses a very VERY over driven fan speed to move much needed air for the difference. A garbage truck is a stop and go truck. When that air lock fan clutch grabs at full revs it will throw the belts off some times. I know from experience. Over the road trucks on the other hand don't need as much fan speed. Cool weather air at road speed is enough that the air clutch is rarely locked
REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on. |