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6/09/2020 11:13 AM  #76


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Bullet Bob wrote:

Well, decision is made. 

Been biding my time till all the evidence was in, I'm still just as mystified as anyone else. Bummer.
 However I do have just one word fer you BB, 331. Ya want it, and if not now when?? You'll be happier in the long run.
Yup, you are a full growed man able to make his own decisions, which you will do.

Corky


If it ain't broke, I haven't modified it Yet
 

6/09/2020 2:51 PM  #77


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Technically that's either 1 or 3 numbers depending on how you look at it, or 2 to 3 words, but I agree nonetheless.

 

6/12/2020 7:20 PM  #78


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Okay...final decision has been made.  Probably going to upset some of you but....tough!

I spoke with the fellow who is doing the machining on the "new" block.  He's well known locally and not only builds engines for a number of local racer types he has run his own modified cars with his own engines.   His shop is as complete as any I've ever seen right down to the "assembly room" and dyno, and he keeps it neat.  No piles of junk.  He's as anal as anyone I've ever spoken to...he makes me feel like the foolish amateur I am.  
He explained that the problem with my engine was probably due to my failure to line hone the block and balance the engine rotating assy( I think TKO and others mentioned this as a possible problem).  I hated to admit that but facts is facts, I went cheap back in 06 when I built that engine.  He suspected that the bottom end was slowly eating itself and my pulls to over 5k just pushed it over the edge.  He told me all about "new" blocks and what he does to try to get them to settle down and not "move" around.  He looked at my AFR heads and pointed out why they are...his words..."crap".  And I couldn't disagree after he pointed out a couple of things I didn't think were too bad when I first looked at them.  In his opinion you cannot simply bolt on ANY head right out of the box 'cause they are all likely going to be "crap".  Valve stem height all over the place and the rocker stud alignment looks like the holes were drilled and tapped by hand. 
He explained that the Ford 5.0 "skeleton" crank is not all that strong and that he has seen a number of them break.  He recommends that they not be pushed to high RPM. 
I was ready to trip the trigger on a 331 kit and asked if there were strength advantages to the cast after market 331 cranks.  He told me that in his experience they are all prone to "thrust" problems.  Then he showed me one to make the point.  The thrust surface was completely worn away.  In his opinion, if I want a stroker I should step up to the forged crank.
In the end I cannot justify another $1000 for the forged crank so I decided to go with a stockish 5.0...and hope the crank holds together as it has thus far.
He is going to bake and clean my new block then line hone, deck, and bore it.  He is going to do a cleanup cut on the AFR heads so they'll be flat and make the valve stems all the same height.  They were close when I bought but there was still evidence of geometry variation.  The miss-alignment of the rocker studs will have to stand.  It's just not worth the $$ to have him correct that.
I'm going to change the cam to something in the neighborhood of 214 @.050 duration and .500 lift with a minimum 110 LSA and, of course, I'll keep the AFR heads.  Why give up the breathing and a full point of compression.  My goal is to have an engine that starts pulling right off idle and is done by 5K.  This combination should make a nice 5.0 with a bit more skooby than stock.
I hate to own up to this but I am considering having him do the assembly and run it on the dyno.  Should be interesting.

So there you go.  No 331 for me.  Just gonna keep the 5.0 so we'll always keep the Heap in it's proper place at the rear of the cruise line.  While the engine is being massaged I will try to get the 4R70W ready.  I'm really looking forward to dialing in the '95 W4H0 computer to run the engine and trans.

BB1
 

Last edited by Bullet Bob (6/12/2020 7:26 PM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

6/12/2020 8:59 PM  #79


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Your REALLY gonna take the word of this .....'so-called-automotive-trained-machinist'.......when you have this dozen or so "experts" here on the net?!!
I'm speechless....(and that's saying a lot!)



J/K


You "may" be at the back of the caravan in the 'heap' butt-chew will prolly also be the guy who'll say...."nawww I don't need any fuel this stop so....... I'm gonna go inside and buy a Snicker bar and a Pepsi and wait fer y'all"!
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

6/12/2020 9:01 PM  #80


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

You gonna 'at-least' have the pistons turned around thou..........aren't you?!
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

6/13/2020 5:34 AM  #81


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

I've found over the years that every engine builder or machinist tends to have their own set of points of importance when it comes to building or machining an engine.  This isn't to say that any one of them is more right; they all have just had different experiences and have over the years tried different things to correct the problems they have seen. 

I would never suggest just checking nothing and slapping a engine together.  I check everything, including new parts.  I've found metal shavings in brand new pushrods for example.  I test fit the distributor prior to installing the timing cover so I'm sure I have clearance between the drive gear and block.  Anything that can be checked, should be checked. 

I don't know what model or how old your AFRs are.  I can say that on mine everything was perfect.  I checked rocker geometry on multiple valves on both banks and it was perfect.  The machining on them is utterly amazing, but they are all now produced on 5 or 7 axis CNC machines.  That may not have always been the case.

I don't know who's cast cranks he's had problems with, but I'm struggling to understand how a cast crank vs. a forged crank has more issues with the thrust bearing.  If the crank endplay is correct and there is no preload created by the transmission, thrust failure should be a non issue.  I would certainly like to know a whole lot more about this before just accepting it at face value.  One worn out crank is certainly disconcerting, but its just that, one worn out crank.  I can show you a bunch of busted parts in my shop, but it doesn't mean the part was always at fault for its failure. 

The primary concern of a cast vs. forged crank is that a forged crank is more tolerant of detonation (just like a forged piston vs. cast).  Problems with the crank and perceived problems or deficiencies with the mains are typically caused by detonation, whether the builder thinks that or not.  Often it never occurs to them because they didn't hear it.  Under hard use detonation will just break stuff before you hear it. 

There have been millions of budget stroker kits with cast cranks sold over the years, yet the net isn't swamped with tales of crank failures.  If you keep your plans realistic a cast crank will work just fine.  Those plans aren't realistic if you are going to make 750HP with a blower and run the tune up on the ragged edge.  If you're shooting for 400-450HP NA and are going to use street tuning there's no reason why a quality cast crank won't be good enough.

Hey, in the end we all tend to go with the advice we're getting from the guy we think knows more than us (or who does in fact often actually know more than us).  You've got to do what you think works best for your budget.  I can say that there's a point of over engineering though.  There's also a point of being gun shy, and its when you're having to build a second engine and fearing what it would be like to have to build a third.  Then something comes along that plays right into your worst fears.  Just be cautious of the amount of conformation bias that may exist in this situation. 
 

 

6/13/2020 7:14 AM  #82


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Yikes.  I can feel that in the pit of my stomach.


Owner of MustangSteve - 1967 Mustang Coupe 302, 2005 Mustang GT
 

6/13/2020 7:18 AM  #83


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Bob, I know that you're not gunna get rid of the AFR 165s. And they are more suited to a 302 than a 331 or 347. Sooo ... good choice.
Shame for me .... I'd'a given you double what they cost you.  

Last edited by 50vert (6/13/2020 7:48 AM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

6/13/2020 11:35 AM  #84


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

There's a lotta good points in your last post TKO.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

6/13/2020 3:00 PM  #85


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

50vert wrote:

Bob, I know that you're not gunna get rid of the AFR 165s. And they are more suited to a 302 than a 331 or 347. Sooo ... good choice.
Shame for me .... I'd'a given you double what they cost you.  

Thanks Barry, I knew you would always be a true friend.

For those who don't know the story, the brand new AFR's were a gift from another friend who, unfortunately never got to see/hear/feel them run.

As for Tom's comments, I agree...lots of good points there.  I think maybe I'm just getting tired of screwing around.  Whoo nose (TS), I might just stick the stock E7TE's back on and keep it stone stock.  It never gave me any grief when it was stock, and I didn't have to mess around with the EFI...just drove it everywhere.  Lots to be said for that too.  I'll just be sure to park away from the group.

BB1

 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

6/13/2020 3:51 PM  #86


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Bullet, 
I am happy with any way you go. I will never second guess your decisions. 
Fix it and drive it, that is all that counts in the long run.


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

6/13/2020 4:59 PM  #87


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

BB, Don't feel bad about your decision. No matter how much you hot rod that thing some one is always going to beat ya. Put on your cool FI system and fancy automatic tranny and every one will be jelous of you. Then you an park right in the middle of the crowd with that good lookin ride. (Heap) If in it was me I would trade it for a 70 convertable and put in a stroked 351W............


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

6/13/2020 5:22 PM  #88


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Yeah, stock engines rarely give trouble, but I'm reminded of my favorite line from Rounders (good movie about underground poker players if you've never seen it).  At one point the main character tells his friend that folding was the smart play because he "can't lose what he doesn't put in the middle".  By the end of the film he comes around to a realization though "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either". 

In the end, if you'll be happy with a stock engine, then build a stock engine and move on.  For me modified vehicles is just a way of life.  Its been a really long time since I can remember a vehicle I didn't feel could be improved by move power, and thus its been a long time since I owned anything that was stock, or stayed that way for very long.  There is definitely risk that comes with that reward, but its risk I'll gladly take. 

 

6/13/2020 5:41 PM  #89


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

I've said it before, but I'd give up 100 hp for reliability.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

6/13/2020 6:07 PM  #90


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Just a lil FYI...........Look close....very closely..........the driver of THIS Mustang looks a lot like Bullet Bob!
(no kidd'in...zoom in)
Guyz seem to have a lotta fun with them old souped-up Mustangs!!
Jus say'in!!!!!
6s6

Last edited by 6sally6 (6/13/2020 6:08 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

6/13/2020 7:21 PM  #91


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

HudginJ3 wrote:

BB, Don't feel bad about your decision. No matter how much you hot rod that thing some one is always going to beat ya. Put on your cool FI system and fancy automatic tranny and every one will be jelous of you. Then you an park right in the middle of the crowd with that good lookin ride. (Heap) If in it was me I would trade it for a 70 convertable and put in a stroked 351W............

I might do that, Doug, if I could find someone dumb enough to trade a decent 70 Vert for a 66 HT.

BB1


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     Thread Starter
 

6/14/2020 8:01 AM  #92


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

As a young fella that always had a stang since HS, but left them stock for lack of extra $'s and family first. They were always reliable DD. It wasn't till after the kids were grown and out on there own that the wife said lets soup them up and have a little fun, but not too much that we can't drive them all over the country...

 

6/14/2020 7:01 PM  #93


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Your  still going to be able to burn your tires off BB.   I agree with the stockish type engine. As I get older I like the dependability over the extra HP.  I keep going back and forth with a Tri-star 347 stroker or just going with a Stock HO 50 long block from Blue Print. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-bpf30216c .  Time will tell!  Good Luck!

Last edited by Steve69 (6/14/2020 7:07 PM)

 

6/14/2020 8:22 PM  #94


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Bullet Bob wrote:

HudginJ3 wrote:

BB, Don't feel bad about your decision. No matter how much you hot rod that thing some one is always going to beat ya. Put on your cool FI system and fancy automatic tranny and every one will be jelous of you. Then you an park right in the middle of the crowd with that good lookin ride. (Heap) If in it was me I would trade it for a 70 convertable and put in a stroked 351W............

I might do that, Doug, if I could find someone dumb enough to trade a decent 70 Vert for a 66 HT.

BB1

 
Hey I gots one! but so far I'm playen the smart card.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

6/15/2020 5:55 AM  #95


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Reliability and HP can peacefully coexist; it just takes being meticulous.  There's no reason why a properly built high performance engine can't be just as reliable as a stock one.  I've made dozens of trips back and forth to Maine in three different modified vehicles over the years.  That's a 6 hour trip for me each way, and that's with the hammer down. 

Truth be told what's failed on my vehicles has been driveline stuff I really knew should have been upgraded anyway.  I broke the rear and trans in my K5, and I'm on my 3rd trans in my F250.  I rolled the dice on those parts, knowing that it probably wasn't a question of it, but of when something would fail.  Then upgraded when they did.

 

6/15/2020 8:30 PM  #96


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Bullet Bob AIN'T gonna be 'sassy-fied' with no stock 5.0!
I sorta know'em pretty good and.........like me MS RPM TKO Josh.... and most of y'all...a smooth idling/quiet/tame/boring/stock/(did I say boring?)  ANYTHANG just won't do. We've all  experienced that.......'scrotal-tingle'..... these classics give each of us when we slip behind the wheel of these classic time machine/death traps.
I've seen that stupid-teenager-like grin(no matter what age) when  somebody "wrings-it-out" in the first three gears...........just 'cause they CAN!!     We've ALL done it!!
Bet he sez....."screw-that-machinist's advice"........I'm putting another one together and THIS TIME I'm gonna change this & that & (fill-in-the-blank)!!!
He'll get out the calipers/dial indicator/plasti-gage/ rachets & ranchez/Summit catalogue/check book and get serious about do'in what he do best.
Same thing he's done for 50+years....build'in hot rod mow-derz!!
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

6/17/2020 9:03 PM  #97


Re: Does this mean there is a problem?

Sorry to hear about your engine BB.  I’m by no means a racer type, but I’ve always been one to go a few notches above stock. Little bigger cam, some roller rockers, free flow exhaust, molly push rods, and rings.  That’s really all you need to go cruising across state lines.  If you don’t go to the track every weekend, I’ve always felt you’re kinda wasting money going overboard with an engine build.

 

Board footera


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