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Long story, but I purchased my 65 FB in 1990. Worked on it off and on for a half dozen years or so amidst a house remodel, refresh, repair.
Built the one off special recipe "old school" 422 Windsor stroker. Used a 400 Ford crank offset ground to my specs to get the KB pistons to zero deck. 4.140" stroke. The Chrysler 340 rods are longer with a smaller rod journal so that facilitated the offset grind. They had to be narrowed to fit the 400 journal width. The 400 Ford crank needed a couple very minor mods to fit in the block .I worked with Steve Moody at AMS here in town. He's a top notch engine builder, holds several land speed records and does some work for Troy Trepanier. He likes working with people who know what they want; I've built nearly 10 engines with his machine work. I added ARP 185 heads, Comp 274 XE cam, roller rockers, Weiand dual plane. Bagged it up.
Built a fully rollerized C4 in which I machined reliefs in the various parts to make way for the TH350 and C6 thrust bearings replacing all of the thrust washers. Welded the forward drum, modded the pump, added more clutches in both clutch packs, refreshed everything. Built a home brew manual valve body. RPM secured me a 9" out of a 69 parts car and we narrowed it, added Torino large bearing ends and disk brakes. Got some Moser 31 spline axles and a Detroit locker center section.
The shock towers were destroyed by the PO making way for a 351 with manifolds. RPM secured some JY donor car shock towers and I drilled a zillion spot welds to make way for the new. I sandblasted the replacement shock towers.
That screeching sound was everything coming to a complete halt. Along came 1998 when we had our first child. It went on hold, the engine about 85%, the beefed up C4 bagged, the 9" still in pieces stood up at the end of my lathe. I went through a bunch of car covers. The shock tower less body hiding on the west side of our house. Out of view, not even thought about for a long long time. As RPM built his 69 I was intimidated by the enormity of the task. I maintain a fleet of BMW for our family, 4 E60s and an F10. Seems like constant maintenance and a few repair thrown in.
And a million other things.
I enjoyed RPM participating in the Bashes from afar. The Bob invited me to the 25th. With Audi seats and functioning A/C, it seemed very do able. Other than a couple of failed clicky clacky fuel pumps, the trip out went swimmingly. Then I met a bunch of the guys. There was this esprit de corps that is pretty cool. The Bullet Bob stories, the hands on car time, the opportunity to relive some old feelings I hadn't had since I was in HS. My old 440 RT Charger wrenching days, The innumerable times I had that Holley carb apart.
Then I met Lieutenant Dan. He bought his 65 around 1990 when he was stationed at NAS Lemoore, not far from Fresno. He has driven it all along. It was in similar condition to my FB, which I tore apart immediately. I was thankful for meeting Dan and hearing his wisdom. Keep it on the road. Don't get it perfect, get it running. Damn. We had 180* different approaches. Damn. I should have LT'd it and just kept it on the road. I could have been enjoying the car all these years.
MS told me about the 2018 Must GT brake upgrade. I bought some calipers from him. Lt. Dan let me drive his 65 which was awesome, generous, very cool. I loved the road feel, the solidity of the car and most of all the stance. I told him I wanted my FB to be like his. He shared all the front suspension info. I ordered the coilovers. RPM found a set of upper a arms like Dan's for sale used. I bought those.
I left TX with a lot of things, but most of all a determination to revive my FB project. It had been missing the front shock towers for decades. Time to change that.
I noticed the MS mod on flattening the cheeks on his FB shock towers. Did that. Cleaned up the engine bay, removed the light surface rust (thank you desert climate) and trial fitted the shock towers. RPM's son welded those in for me - my welding unit and skills probably not up to structural components. Well, definitely not.
Prepped and painted the engine bay, ran NiCop brake lines, Ranger MC, plumbed the front brakes. Wanted standard vented rotors so I used some 08 Challenger 14" rotors. After fabricating a dozen or so aluminum spacers for the pivots, a bunch of trips to get grade 8 hardware of just the right length, the front suspension finally went together. I fabbed my own strut rods with spherical joints at the front using AFCO tubes and I threaded the rearward section of the stock rods. Did some OpenTracker style old school lowers, reinforced, spherical pivot, screw in ball joints. Street or Track tubular uppers, Viking coilovers. Stock steering box I rebuilt (fun that.)
Got the engine out of my storage cabinet, pulled the pan just to check a few things and install a one piece pan gasket. All looked well. Ran it on a run stand, doing the nerve wracking flat tappet break in ordeal. Mercy.
Learned with a project car that pretty much nothing goes easily. Flex plate didn't play nice wit the TCI convertor. Did that dance until it all was picture perfect, just 1/16" fore aft clearance, but it does float - no preload on the crank and the bolt holes enable finger install of the bolts. Can't anything go simply?
I thought it'd take a day or two to final assemble the 9". Took way longer, so many trial fittings of the brakes, the brake lines, the Torino bearing retainer didn't fit over the Torino bearing. Had to turn that in the lathe. Was missing some parts for the brake calipers, clips, banjo bolts, mixing metric with SAE line fittings. Bending and fitting the lines. Finally after 10x more work and a zillion more trial fittings, it was ready to slap into the FB. Getting the old 8" out of the FB wasn't too bad other than the car was (is?) coated underneath with a fine silty dirt, like it was a field car at my Uncle Simon's ranch. Damn. Shoulda pressure washed it when it was driveable. Wrestled the 8" out and the 9" in solo. RPM asked, "Isn't that a two man job?" Yes. Definitely.
Got the motor tranny ready to drop in. Seemed a bit much. So I took a spare Windsor block and bolted it to an empty C4 housing and trial fitted it. Good practice. Ended up affixing the leveler differently to the engine. Fabbed a couple of steel brackets to do that properly. Plumbed some NiCop cooling lines for the C4 and had those in place before I dropped the engine in. Seemed like a good idea.
Then fun with stock trans linkage/shifter. Refurbished that with a ton of machined bushings and spacers plus heating and bending the main linkage rod. Good and tight. Firm.
Learned that there are dozens of combinations and permutations when it comes to Ferd u joints. Huh. Never knew. Some are a lot more common that the ones I needed. I had a box u-joints among the stuff that "Dead Nuts On" left behind when they escaped the Californistan business climate. He said this leave behind pile of parts was going in a dumpster if I didn't take it. I didn't even want to go to look at the pile. My neighbor dragged me over there. Took it. Two pickup loads. Still shaking my head at that one. A handful of different u-joints. Not one of them worked. Dude, really? Ordered 2 correct and 1 wrong u-joint. Wow. That wasn't easy. Fortunately a driveshaft in the pile of parts worked. If you have the right u-joints.
Then the small stuff. Oh Lord. I'll spare you - all of you who've built one of these knows. I can't imagine working around a freshly painted car. This has been a trial of gigantic proportions - but making great progress.
Just fired the 422 up sitting in the car yesterday. That was the same day the car sat on all fours for the first time in 34 years. Thirty four.... Can't wrap my head around that. Shout out to RPM for his huge postive effect on this. Without his donations, direction, counsel and even in person help (he's driven twice to Fresno in the last month to lend a valuable hand) this wouldn't be getting anywhere. Tanks bruddah.
I'll be at the Bash. Just hope it's with my FB. Please God, let me make that happen.
Last edited by RCodePaul (9/30/2024 2:38 PM)
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Outstanding build story Paul. Ya, if you haven't built a modified hot rod Mustang, you haven't really lived. Once you start driving that 65 2+2 all of that frustration will gradually fade away.
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That is quite a story. My car sat for 3 or4 years while life got in the way. (Weddings, grandkids), can't hardy imagine sitting for 34 years.
Listened to the video, it just might have enough cam for 6S6. Sounds healthy.
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WOW!!.... WADDA...WHITE-UP !!
After all these many many years of waiting for some one to do the 400 crank and Chrysler rod swap that was featured in a Pop Hot Rodding magazine...Paulie finally did one !! I am totally stoked, dude !!..(.my best California speak...sorry
Too bad my PC doesn't have sound any more....(might give the old slap-top a whirl)
I sure hope you got TWO seats in dat 65...............(I call SHOTGUN!!)
Nice ride.....
6sally6
Just heard the new engine on Youtube.....very arousing !!
6s6
Last edited by 6sally6 (9/30/2024 7:18 PM)
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rpm wrote:
Outstanding build story Paul. Ya, if you haven't built a modified hot rod Mustang, you haven't really lived. Once you start driving that 65 2+2 all of that frustration will gradually fade away.
Alan wrote:
That is quite a story. My car sat for 3 or4 years while life got in the way. (Weddings, grandkids), can't hardy imagine sitting for 34 years. Listened to the video, it just might have enough cam for 6S6. Sounds healthy.
6sally6 wrote:
WOW!!.... WADDA...WHITE-UP !!
After all these many many years of waiting for some one to do the 400 crank and Chrysler rod swap that was featured in a Pop Hot Rodding magazine...I sure hope you got TWO seats in dat 65...(I call SHOTGUN!!)
Nice ride.....
6sally6
Thanks fellas. Yes, still living in the initial build, time is a wastin' mode - looking forward to some driving therapy.
Alan, I can't imagine that it sat for 34 years, and I lived it. Sal, you can definitely ride shotgun.
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Since Sally wussed out and is driving a Kia from Bob Hope airport, he'll need a wide on Friday's road trip to Mustang MD. Good call Sal.
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That’s is one big write up and a cool story. Glad you got it back together. Any videos of it running?
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Do you do everything the hardway? 😂
Sounds great too.
Cannot wait to see it in person.
Don’t touch the paint…or Bondo.
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Nos681 wrote:
Do you do everything the hardway? 😂 Sounds great too. Cannot wait to see it in person. Don’t touch the paint…or Bondo.
Thanks for all your help Lieutenant Dan. Much appreciate your sharing your wisdom. And yes, hardheaded Paul does ever dam thang the hard way. And the "patina" is safe. Ha!
RTM wrote:
That’s is one big write up and a cool story. Glad you got it back together. Any videos of it running?
Thank you sir. I do appreciate your thoughts, hope you can make it to The Bash. YT video is here.
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6sally6 wrote:
WOW!!.... WADDA...WHITE-UP !!
After all these many many years of waiting for some one to do the 400 crank and Chrysler rod swap that was featured in a Pop Hot Rodding magazine...Paulie finally did one !!
Just heard the new engine on Youtube.....very arousing !!
6s6
Thanks Sal. That crackle is something. I can't say for sure, since it's been so long - but here's what I truly believe happened on the 422 recipe. At about the time Bob was thinking 393, I was already on a different track. I had read a long rod article and was a bit put off by the short rod 393 combo. I preferred the idea of a longer rod in a stroker Windsor. PAW was a thing back then (I said a long time ago) and I had been collecting info on heads and stroker combos. I saw a 377 article where they put 340 rods in a 351W and offset ground the crank to make 377 ci. I read of another formula for a 408 where they took a Ferd 400 crank and with some Chevy rods and high dollar pistons made that combo work. I found the United Engine Machine listing of all their pistons complete with compression heights. Did the math below and "discovered" an off the shelf combo with reasonable KB hyper pistons. I'm not swearing on a stack of bibles that I never saw the PHR article on Ford/Mopar/KB combo, but I don't think I did. Not that it matters.
The reason I think I didn't see that one is that my first set of PAW 340 rods, I had reconditioned, added ARP wavelock bolts and narrowed - to the 377 spec. Aaaaaagh!!! Way too narrow for the wider 400 journal. DOH! Sold those on eBay. My second set of PAW 340 rods weren't narrowed until we had the 400 crank at AMS. Then the rotating assembly was machined. I took everything, beam polished the rods, did all the mockups, had to clearance some of the rods to make way for the cam lobes (it's tight) and the pan rails for the rod bolts. Did I mention it's tight? Took it all back to be balanced. Hard way for sure. But working with Steve Moody was worth the extra effort. He even asked my opinion on long rods - they were building a de stroked SBC for a land speed record and he was wondering about the long rod effect. Had I bought a stroker kit or a crate motor, that never would have happened.
Thanks one and all for the comments. Much appreciated. Was hesitant to post anything pre Bash, but when we fired it up Sunday, RPM said - gotta do a post on the MS board. Alrighty then.
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Outstanding work on that motor Paul. My mind would explode if I had to do all the math in building that motor. If you think it sounds good in the video Sal, you should hear it in person.
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Engine sounds healthy.
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Great work on the car and I hope to see it at the Bash!!!!!
I thought the hard way was the only way.
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rpm wrote:
Since Sally wussed out and is driving a Kia from Bob Hope airport, he'll need a wide on Friday's road trip to Mustang MD. Good call Sal.
Soooooo...this means the Red pick-up is out ??! OK!
5s5
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RCodePaul wrote:
6sally6 wrote:
WOW!!.... WADDA...WHITE-UP !!
After all these many many years of waiting for some one to do the 400 crank and Chrysler rod swap that was featured in a Pop Hot Rodding magazine...Paulie finally did one !!
Just heard the new engine on Youtube.....very arousing !!
6s6Thanks Sal. That crackle is something. I can't say for sure, since it's been so long - but here's what I truly believe happened on the 422 recipe. At about the time Bob was thinking 393, I was already on a different track. I had read a long rod article and was a bit put off by the short rod 393 combo. I preferred the idea of a longer rod in a stroker Windsor. PAW was a thing back then (I said a long time ago) and I had been collecting info on heads and stroker combos. I saw a 377 article where they put 340 rods in a 351W and offset ground the crank to make 377 ci. I read of another formula for a 408 where they took a Ferd 400 crank and with some Chevy rods and high dollar pistons made that combo work. I found the United Engine Machine listing of all their pistons complete with compression heights. Did the math below and "discovered" an off the shelf combo with reasonable KB hyper pistons. I'm not swearing on a stack of bibles that I never saw the PHR article on Ford/Mopar/KB combo, but I don't think I did. Not that it matters.
The reason I think I didn't see that one is that my first set of PAW 340 rods, I had reconditioned, added ARP wavelock bolts and narrowed - to the 377 spec. Aaaaaagh!!! Way too narrow for the wider 400 journal. DOH! Sold those on eBay. My second set of PAW 340 rods weren't narrowed until we had the 400 crank at AMS. Then the rotating assembly was machined. I took everything, beam polished the rods, did all the mockups, had to clearance some of the rods to make way for the cam lobes (it's tight) and the pan rails for the rod bolts. Did I mention it's tight? Took it all back to be balanced. Hard way for sure. But working with Steve Moody was worth the extra effort. He even asked my opinion on long rods - they were building a de stroked SBC for a land speed record and he was wondering about the long rod effect. Had I bought a stroker kit or a crate motor, that never would have happened.
Thanks one and all for the comments. Much appreciated. Was hesitant to post anything pre Bash, but when we fired it up Sunday, RPM said - gotta do a post on the MS board. Alrighty then.
I LUV bench racing about the different combos and such.....Almost as many guys who 'prove' the long-rod therory (shoot...effect) the other side sez it bogus thank'in ! What EVERRRR !
Long rod stuff uses a different think'in on cam specs and what works best with that engine.
(Get RPM to go see his buddy Ed Iskenderian and find out the cam grind for the old flat head engines. Those rods were MAJOR long ! maybe a 3/4 or a full or a extra super full Isky cam grind to work on your engine !!!)
See ya at the bash....
6sally6
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Excellent story, Outstanding Outcome! Only thing wrong is that it makes me wanna go spend an extra hour on my butt kicking machine for ever selling anything.
Can't wait to see/here it, Paul....You Dun Good, Bro!
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The original Joe Sherman!!
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YEAH !!!......Joe Sherman...he was big on the long rod stuff. (and his stuff was stuupid quick too!)
6sally6
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Bullet Bob wrote:
Excellent story, Outstanding Outcome! Only thing wrong is that it makes me wanna go spend an extra hour on my butt kicking machine for ever selling anything.
Can't wait to see/here it, Paul....You Dun Good, Bro!
Thanks fellas, it's been a long road. That vidya on YouTube that this boardhost setup won't link to had over 10,000 views (I expected 500) so - Sal, a lot of people dig the rumpity rump just like you. Bob makes fun of me for keeping stuff (like my sprint kart, and my road racing kart, and all the motors clutches etc.) but why sell it at giveaway prices? Never got that.
Thanks for all the encouragement - it's a grind to work on a crappy condition car that was taken off the road decades ago. Abused - just was bending the valence to get it back on and a huge chunk of bondo fell off it. So I hammered and twisted and bent on the thing. Wow. People just tortured these poor things.
Every day. Hours and hours for months is all it takes. Some days 12, 13 hours of "fun". Build a Mustang. It'll be fun.
One headlight bucket lost in the 30+ years, replacement needed some repairs. Gold splash pan is from a 65 A Code coupe my Aunt bought new in '65. I rode home from Timmy Palacios' 5th birthday party in that car. First ride in a Mustang. Memorable.
Still crashing on the to do list.
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OK, so the fastback missed the BASH but I didn't. Long story short, not enough sort out time. Sucker ran absolutely flawlessly after I put the 735 off my SCJ on her. The inline tube fuel line no show was a setback as were several other things, so I left late on Thursday. Wanted to travel in the light, so no draw on anything eliminated many potential issues. 7p departure was not good. Ran well for 40 miles, then a scatter miss started. Light at first then progressively worse.
Not gonna go through all the issues in detail, but the 735 started spilling fuel into the primary venturies. I assumed a bad needle/seat - R&R. Repeat. Switch carbs. Repeat.
Now I'm assuming too much fuel pressure from the mech fuel pump. TBD.
Also had a short in the headlight circuit forward of the firewall. Cut the yellow wire. No more clicking in the instrument cluster.
Had a great spark, then no spark condition. Chased that around to no effect.
Ended up leaning on RPM and NOS681 - they were more than awesome. Helped, encouraged, took over. Ended up ruining their sleep - apologies fellas. But huge thanks as well. Much appreciated.
Stranded in Tulare. Sleepless for 30 hours.
Tow truck back home - daily driver back to Bako.
Made it.
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Nos681 wrote:
Do you do everything the hardway? 😂
Sounds great too.
Cannot wait to see it in person.
Don’t touch the paint…or Bondo.
Yes, I do.
And thank you.
Re: bondo - I don't think I need to touch the paint. Based on all the reactions during my Tulare stranding - people frigging love the car. On dude in a really high end Mercedes pulled off the avenue, drove into the parking lot just to tell me the car is badass. Another guy, let's call him a "Mustang Angel" drove by, saw the car; made a U-turn and offered to help. Dude was pure class and super encouraging. Just a great guy.
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Hey, Dan and I were happy to help. Welp, at least I was. You'll long remember meeting cool people on breakdowns long after forgetting the pain. I still tell stories of good Americans I met on breakdowns.
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