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So how many runs hydroboost ? is it worth the upgrade ?
I have cobra brakes in the front and DBK9 kit in the back. Leedbraked banditpump 25in/hg. and stock mustang cardone remanufactured brakebooster. Is there more hidden power with hydraboost ? I have the Borgesson saginaw so it should be enough.
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I presume you are saying that 25 inches of vac is not providing adequate braking. You don't mention what year your car is but if it's a 65-66 that stock booster is pretty puny, I think, designed for power drum brakes which require about 50% of the pressure needed by those big discs. I'm running the 12.5 inch GT brakes with Explorer discs in the rear and with only 9-10 inches of vacuum it had terrible brakes. I have the MustangSteve power brake pedal conversion and had a 9" Fox 4-Cyl booster. I changed to the Fox V8, 7" dual diaphram booster and added a mechanical vacuum pump which now provides me with a solid 17" of vacuum. Great brakes now.
BB1
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From your picture, it appears this is a 72 Mustang? What size is your master cylinder piston? If too large, braking will not be optimum with disc brakes.
A hydroboost will make for stronger brakes. I just hate to see all the added plumbing to make it work.
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I installed a hydroboost system a couple of years ago and am quite pleased with it. It was "tight" getting everything to fit on the firewall as I also have hydraulic clutch. Of course the 71-73 Mustangs are wider than a 65/66, so that might not be an issue for you.
"Hydrotech", based in Tennessee, has kits and was very helpful with technical issues.
I had to change to an offset master cylinder for the clutch, available from "Modern Driveline" and a brake MC for a 95-97 Explorer, Raybestos #MC390269.
Let me know if you want more details.
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Sorry the car is a 73 Mach 1 , 25 in/hg produces enough for having good brakes. Cylinder piston is 1 inch, its factory for disc/disc I think. I dont now if the master cylinder is the best for this combo(bigger bore smaller bore). Stock pedal.
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I put hydroboost in my 62 Galaxie and LOVE it. here is some info on my install
Daze on galaxieforum.com wrote:
I was PMed about my hydroboost in my Galaxie and figured I would make a post so everyone could benefit. Below are several reposts of the project:
on the old forum, daze wrote:
The rear drum brakes on my galaxie are locking up way to soon despite the aftermarket proportioning valve installed in line. Because of this I need to do some rear brake work. I don't see the point in investing in drums especially when I have a disc brake set up sitting on my parts shelf. Of course if I go from disc/drum to disc/disc the MC will need to be changed out. The MC I already have on the shelf for this project is a corvette unit, so that left me with two options modify the mounting holes on the corvette MC to match the Fordpattern, OR install the hydroboost unit I also have had sitting on the shelf and have planned on putting on the galaxie any way. The corvette MC will bolt directly to the hydroboost unit without modifications and special mods had to be done to mount the hydroboost to the car anyway so why modify the MC now and then they hydroboost unit mounting plate later when I can just install the hydroboost now and only modify once.
Since my Galaxie is still drivable I am getting all the parts together and ready to install first, that way the amount of time the car will be down will be minimal. I started by working out the mounting between the hydroboost and pedal assembly. I had an extra pedal assembly lying around so I had something to work with. First thing to overcome was the length of the pushrod. on my hydroboost unit the pushrod is an integrated part of the unit and was to long to
allow me to bolt the hydroboost directly to the fire wall and still hook up to the pedal. One possible solution was to cut the the rod down to size thread it and then thread on a shorter rod end. I didn't like this idea for a couple of reasons first the rod has to be narrow enough to slide inside the hydroboost unit so I couldn't cut off that much AND what would I do if I had to replace the unit down the road, modify another?? A better solution seemed to be to build a stand off
Why hydroboost you may be thinking?? well:
1. the hydraulic clutch MC on my car would have clearance issues with a normal vacuum booster unit.
2. hydroboost does not draw on engine vacuum so at idle the power brakes would be just as good as at higher RPMS.
3. hydroboost provides more brake pressure than a vacuum booster
4. unlike with vacuum power assist if the power part of the brakes were to stop due to the engine shutting off, there is no difference between
manual brake pedal effort and pedal effort (assuming the same bore MC) when going through a non functional hydroboost unit.
daze wrote:
WOW!!! I love my new hydroboost power brakes. If you want to stop, you stop right now!!
My set up consists of a mid 90s Chevy S10 hydroboost, 67 corvette master cylinder and home made lines using ends and lines from aeroquip. The power steering pump is a stock unit. I have T-bird front discs that I have had on the car for a couple of years and MarkVII rear discs that were installed as part of this project.
The project started by working on getting the hydroboost unit to be correctly spaced on the fire wall and still maintain the correct pedal height with out having to modify the hydroboost push rod. I happened to have an extra Galaxie pedal support and pedal and bolted it to my hydroboost unit to mock things up.
Once the hydroboost unit was ready to go in I turned my attention to the car and began installing the Mark VII rear discs.
With the rear discs installed I removed the old Ford master cylinder, then mounted the corvette master and the hydroboost unit in place and plumbed the brake lines.
I then added a small oil cooler to be used to keep the power steering fluid cool.
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with all the pieces in place I ran the high pressure power steering lines and started on the low pressure lines. The original low pressure line from the power steering unit went to a T. The low pressure line from the hydroboust unit also went to that T and then a single line went out from the T to the oil cooler and then back to the return port of the power steering pump.
With it all hooked up, I primed and bleed the power steering system, and then tested out my new power brakes. The results were less than spectacular. When you first fired up the car the brake pedal would drop about 1/4" creating a slight brake drag. as soon as the car was turned off the pedal would come back up to normal height. Also the brakes were ultra sensitive.
I had purchased some fitting for this project from hydratech so I contacted them and told them what parts I had in my system. Shortly after I sent the email I heard back from Paul at hydratech. He was extremely helpful and new exactly what my problem was and what the potential fixes were. On a hydroboost unit too much back pressure on the return line will cause the pedal to self apply. He gave me a quick test for confirming that back pressure was indeed the issue and a list of 4 possible causes of the extra back pressure. Turns out I had all 4 and even when eliminated I still had to much back pressure. The solution was to ditch the T and add a second return line port to my power steering reservoir. To do so I took a 3/8" bolt and machined it to be a thread in nipple.
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I then drilled and taped the reservoir to accept said nipple
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I chose to tap the hole in the reservoir for two reasons. I wanted to be able to thread it in from inside and I wanted to be able to use RTV as a thread sealer to avoid any leaks.
From there a nut and some more RTV was applied to the outside and tightened down.
When I reinstalled the reservoir, plumbed it all back together and fired it up it performed flawlessly. In fact I am so impressed I would recommend a hydroboost unit over a vacuum assist to any one who has power steering.
older post on this forum Daze wrote:
When I set it up originally I used a Corvette Disc/Disc power MC. It worked well, I could stop on a dime but there was one small flaw. The top of the pedal pressure felt odd, not spongy like there was air in the system... but odd. It was almost like the brakes were slow to grab then after the pedal was pushed a little further they would grab no problem. The other issue I was having is if I got on the brakes hard (simulated panic stop) some fluid would push its way out of the top of the MC cover. to solve these issues I decided to get the MC from the same make and model that the hydroboost came from (94 Chevy C1500) It was a quick swap this morning, a little reverse bleeding and I was off to a test drive. I couldn't be happier with the results. the brakes were really good before but now they are 10 times better!!!!! The new MC is not as flashy as the corvette one, but I like it that way. It tones down the whole system and makes it blend in to the engine bay.
Before
After
Since I originally put this info together I have made a few more changes. I ditched the oil cooler for a transmission cooler and mounted it in front of the radiator. The transmission cooler is less restrictive and a bigger surface aria so it cools better. Doing this also helped my PS pump to run quieter. I also added a GM J-car type R&P to my Gal which required me to use a GM type II power steering pump. This had the benefit of a further reduction in noise and had no effect on breaking positive or negative.
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You should be able to get a common vacuum booster to work. That said, a lot of newer vehicles now use hydroboost due to it being easier to package with OHC engines. Its a good, but more complex system. I drive a vehicle with it every day. Diesels have always used it since they don't make any vacuum (no throttle plate, thus nothing to build a vacuum against). On a car like a classic Mustang, unless I had clearance issues with an engine swap I would work to sort out the vacuum system first, and only look at hydroboost once I'd exhausted every other possibility.
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Daze great write up thanks :-) And thanks everybody else for hints and help. If I put this in it will be a Winter Project. But there is a lot work going into the pipes/hoses.
regards Rob
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I put Hydro-boost is my 66 Mustang and loved it. Here is a write up it did at the time .
Also have Hydro-boost in my Factory 5 roadster stops on a dime.
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It may be worth it, depends on how your engine and brakes are setup too.
Looks like you have plenty of vacuum for brakes.
Is your booster leaking and what size master cylinder are you using?
When I installed MS booster assembly to replace my factory power brake/single jar setup,
There was plenty of stopping power.(289/c4/ps/pb/ Granada front/drums rear).
Enough to throw ya thru windshield.😁
Still using it with 5.0/T5/ps/pb/ 65 spindles/2016 GT brakes front and rear.
Tires are limiting factor.
Guess I need bigger tires now. 😂
Last edited by Nos681 (5/28/2020 8:26 AM)
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Nos681 wrote:
It
Is your booster leaking and what size master cylinder are you using?
Booster is new no leaks, master cylinder is 1 inch bore for disc/disc. bandit vacuum pump 25 in/hg
351c only produces about 10 in/hg at idle, healthy cam :-)
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Have you pulled a vacuum on the booster and let it sit overnight to see if it held? I've seen new/rebuilt ones that had a tiny internal leak that would cause problems like what you describe.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
Have you pulled a vacuum on the booster and let it sit overnight to see if it held? I've seen new/rebuilt ones that had a tiny internal leak that would cause problems like what you describe.
Its connected directly to the bandit pump. The pump has a pressure regulator that starts if the vacuum is to low. the car can sitt for Days and I still have 3 brakes pushes Before the pump starts. So from that I say yes it holds the vacuum good.
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Is it still connected to manifold vacuum at all?
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TKOPerformance wrote:
Is it still connected to manifold vacuum at all?
No goes directly from the bandit pump to the brake booster. Breakes are good but I belive that the hydroboost would take it to Another level.
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I can't see the hydraboost doing anymore than what you have now. If the engine stops, you won't have any boost at all.
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50vert wrote:
I can't see the hydraboost doing anymore than what you have now. If the engine stops, you won't have any boost at all.
That is not how hydroboost works. Hydroboost has an internal pressure canister that if the engine stops will provide assistance for one stroke of the pedal. After that one stroke its just like vacuum assist, it still works however it's stiff.
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They say you should learn something every day ... thanks for filling todays quota Day.
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Mach173 wrote:
TKOPerformance wrote:
Is it still connected to manifold vacuum at all?
No goes directly from the bandit pump to the brake booster. Breakes are good but I belive that the hydroboost would take it to Another level.
I guess it depends on if the pump can keep up with demand. Are the brakes the same if you have to apply them in rapid succession? In other words, is the first stop the same as the second, third, etc. in a short period of time?
Hydroboost may be better able to compensate for a master cylinder that's a mismatch for the system. It may also be able to offer more assist power than a vacuum booster that's not ideal for the application.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
I guess it depends on if the pump can keep up with demand. Are the brakes the same if you have to apply them in rapid succession? In other words, is the first stop the same as the second, third, etc. in a short period of time?
yes all the stops are the same, it has an built reservoir that handles 3 stopp before the pump starts.
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Mach173 wrote:
TKOPerformance wrote:
I guess it depends on if the pump can keep up with demand. Are the brakes the same if you have to apply them in rapid succession? In other words, is the first stop the same as the second, third, etc. in a short period of time?
yes all the stops are the same, it has an built reservoir that handles 3 stopp before the pump starts.
Then the current system is working as well as it can I suppose. I think I'd revist what BB said about the dual diaphragm 7" Fox booster. The master, booster, and brakes all need to work together. For example, braking is often described as less than expected on Fox cars converted to Cobra disc/disc brakes. After swapping to the Cobra spec booster the brakes are found to be much better.
Last edited by TKOPerformance (5/29/2020 7:31 AM)
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