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Now that I have my engine issues figured out I am toying with a camshaft swap. Engines are one of the areas that I am not as knowledgeable on so I appreciate any insights. I have below the stock cam specs and the specs of the Camshaft I am considering. When I put the numbers into my digital dyno the voodoo cam shaft got me about 35 foot pounds over the stock cam and similar HP. So my first question is the upgrade worth it or is the stock roller cam "good enough" 351W, 9.5:1 CR, Flo-tek heads, MSD ignition, headers.
62 Galaxie with manual 5 speed. Low end torque is what my goal is to get the old gal moving.
Stock F4TE cam
Advertised Duration 256/266 (int/exh)
lift 422/448.
LCA 116
Lanuti Voodoo Hydraulic Roller Cam
Duration (Int/Exh): 262/270
Lift (Int/Exh): .541/.549
My second question is how risky is a cam swap on a higher milage engine. I was told when I purchased this engine that it had around 200K miles on it but I really don't believe that give the the results of the compression test. But for the sake of argument let's say the engine is that worn. Is it a big risk to swap out the cam without replacing the cam bearings?
Let the debate begin.
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I would have no issues with swapping in a cam without installing new cam bearings, if you have an already running engine.
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My only concern would be valve springs. Assuming you will replace those, too, that cam should make noticeably more torque and not cause any negative issues. Plus will sound nicer.
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MS wrote:
My only concern would be valve springs. Assuming you will replace those, too, that cam should make noticeably more torque and not cause any negative issues. Plus will sound nicer.
The valve springs are for a roller cam up to .55” of lift. I know I’m at max but I’m thinking their okay?
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Stock cams are fine for stock engines. Your engine isn't stock. To optimize it I would swap the cam.
I would inspect the bearings when the cam was out. If they look good I wouldn't worry about it. If they look bad I'd pull the engine and rebuild it. If the cam bearings are bad the rest of the bearings are worse. I've yet to see cam bearings that were worn out in a good engine, but a good friend put a cam in an engine that had bad bearings. Told the owner about it and the guy ignored his advice. That engine had a short life and ended up a boat anchor.
I would install new lifters along with the cam. They are cheap and its not worth the risk of one going bad.
I would install new valve springs for the same reason. They are maxed now, but that assumes everything is perfect. If its not they are beyond maxed and again, boom.
On the cam, I would call one of the cam companies and get their advice on what profile to run. Personally I prefer Crane because they answer their phone. I've had great results with the cams they sent me for three different engines. I would want to know the I/E relationship on those heads for that conversation. Port flow at various lifts. On a street engine I pay particular attention to the lower lift flow. This will bolster low/midrange torque where you will feel it. Top end HP is great on paper and at the track, but torque rules the street.
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The thing with springs is you have a part that has been cycled many times to one position max lift. If you install a cam with more lift, the springs see more stress than they are used to Even though the new lift may be within their original design specification, it is different than what they are used to seeing. When you compare the cost of a spring failure (dropped valve) against the cost of new springs, I think you will agree to replace them.
As TKO stated, lifters, too. I reused a set of 300,000 mile Ford roller lifters in my truck’s 5.0, but only after careful inspection and knowing the intended use of the engine will probably never see 4,000 rpm.
(Please do not remind me of this when I break a lifter on a Bash trip to BFE someday)
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TKOPerformance wrote:
I would install new lifters along with the cam. They are cheap and its not worth the risk of one going bad.
I was already planning on that. The cams I was looking at all come with new lifters. packages are $400-$500
TKOPerformance wrote:
On the cam, I would call one of the cam companies and get their advice on what profile to run.
Thats a fantastic idea. I actually once did an article for FordMuscle when I was writing for them where I did just that and called several cam companies to get their opinions on a cam for basically the same engine only a 302. It was most illuminating, I shoulr reread it and something I should do again with my current specs.
MS wrote:
The thing with springs is you have a part that has been cycled many times to one position max lift. If you install a cam with more lift, the springs see more stress than they are used to Even though the new lift may be within their original design specification, it is different than what they are used to seeing. When you compare the cost of a spring failure (dropped valve) against the cost of new springs, I think you will agree to replace them.
I am going to replace the springs anyway but for my own education can you provide me a little more information on this? I am familiar with the concept and the mechanics makes sense what I am wondering is at what point does it become an issue, as in run time? These springs have 3 hours or less total run time and most of it was at idle. So if they were not at max with the cam I am considering would I still need to replace them with only 3 hours or less on it?
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I have been putting the numbers in the digital dyno and I don't know if its worth the investment. I put all the specs for this engine and came out with some good results. I then changed the cam specs for the Lunati voodoo cam and picked up 44 foot # torque and 4 horse power.
F4TE roller cam
Lunati Voodoo cam I
F4TE roller cam
Lunati Voodoo cam I
I am looking at $450 for the cam and lifters, $100 for a new set of pushrods, and $100 for new springs. Thats not a lot of improvement for $650. I don't know am I over thinking it?
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Daze, I'm surprised...can't believe that the ultimate DIY-er isn't figuring out how to build his own cam.
Lunati Voodoo is a fantastic grind--one I've gone with in a few larger engine builds I've done.
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I like a custom grind........pick your "best features from a couple cams and see about mixing them up!
The guys at Delta Cams (in Tacoma Wash) did just that for me and at a better price than an "off-the-shelf" grind from the big- boyz.
The guy Ken steered me right on a couple points/questions I had.
They don't want you to buy a cam that won't work in your application.........makes them look bad!
For big time torque at low(er-ish) RPM the LSA needs to be 'tight'. 107*-110*.
(Think dirt track engines. Power range 1500-5500rpm in-a-heart-beat! Revs quick/makes lotsa power in a short amount of time. 1st & 2nd turn/back stretch/ 3rd & 4th turn/ front stretch/repeat!)
I'm with you on replacing springs with just THREE hours run time! I can't imagine a scenario where they would be a bad choice.
230*-240*@050 duration shouldn't be too much for a 351 carburated engine with a T-5. (don't know what your VooDoo 050 duration is)
Lift can be what the F4TE is now so there won't be any MORE stress on the springs (for peace-of-mind)
New lifters are cheap insurance.
Delta Cams..........1-(800) 562- 5500 ask for Ken (Tell'em Mike recommended 'em)
Won't hurt to shop around!!
6sal6
Last edited by 6sally6 (7/18/2020 9:27 PM)
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I would not worry about the three hours run time. What I would worry about is that you are at max lift. No margin for error. Let's say a couple of those springs are shimmed a little on the short side of the installed height tolerance, or the machining is such that the tolerance stack up that way. Those couple springs may not actually be capable of withstanding the max lift. The head manufacturer isn't going to pay to fix your engine if it fails. So to my mind, springs are cheap; engines are expensive. Its just not worth the risk.
That added torque is WELL worth it. IME 20-25lbs/ft down low can make an engine feel totally different. It moved the curve up, so you're seeing that extra power in the 2,000-4,000 RPM range, right in the sweet spot for street use. It also lowered the RPM of the HP peak without changing the curve. It dropped about 500 RPM. Again, putting the power in a more usable RPM range. You can't just look at the peak change; you have to look at the curve. I'd much rather have the Lunati cam.
What I'll say now is call one of the cam companies and check out what the cam they spec does.
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Yes the Lunati is the one. More fun torque curve for sure. A few more HP at high revs just means you get to sweep up smaller pieces when it comes apart.
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I agree with TKO. The added torque alone is worth doing it and more torque down low is what you said you were looking for.
If I can give you one suggestion that worked well for me when I was looking for a cam. Coast High Performance builds a lot of Ford motors and dynos a lot of combinations. They also have a lot of their dyno runs posted on their Facebook page and on YouTube. I spent hours looking at their videos until I came across a combination that had the exact dyno curve I was looking for. I called them up, told them that I'd watched this particular video, and wanted to know what cam was in it because I wanted to buy the same cam. The guy I spoke to remembered the engine and the video- which was surprising given how many they do- told me that the cam was one of their custom grinds and placed the order for me and I had it in 2 weeks.
With the exception of fuel injection, the engine in the video I watched was basically the same as mine.
When we got my engine together and on the dyno I was pleasantly surprised to find that my hp and torque numbers were within 1.5% of the engine in CHP's video, which was pretty amazing when you consider they weren't dynoed on the same dyno.
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I think your dyno estimates are not showing a lot of improvement because of intake restrictions. Are you still running the stock 5.8 truck intake?
Also I am not familiar with those heads, do you have any flow numbers?
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DC wrote:
Yes the Lunati is the one. More fun torque curve for sure. A few more HP at high revs just means you get to sweep up smaller pieces when it comes apart.
That made me laugh, great t-shirt material right there
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Raymond_B wrote:
I think your dyno estimates are not showing a lot of improvement because of intake restrictions. Are you still running the stock 5.8 truck intake?
The program does'n't give me much option on intakes other than dual or single plain or port injection.
Raymond_B wrote:
Also I am not familiar with those heads, do you have any flow numbers?
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Prof wrote:
Daze, I'm surprised...can't believe that the ultimate DIY-er isn't figuring out how to build his own cam.
Interesting thought, you actually get more lift by grinding the lobes down in the "closed" part of the cycle, so if I took a stock came and started removing a little here and a little there
There are a lot of things I am willing to DIY but some how I don't think I'm up to grinding my own cam.
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Ed Winfield told us that when he was a kid taking a shop class at the YMCA he asked the shop teacher if he thought some power could be gained by reshaping the cam on his motor cycle...this was in the late teens (19teens). The teacher told him to leave such things to the experts.
Ed took a file to the heal of the cam and started wining races. Years later most of the big name grinders took guidance of one kind or another from Ed.
BB1
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There is one more issue to consider. Behind this engine is a z-spec T5 rated originally at 330 foot pounds. When Glen built it I know he shimmied all the bearing tight and he installed a billet counter gear stabilizer and those two things push the torque rating up near 400 foot pounds. I wasn't too worried about it with the stock cam and 351 because according to the digital dyno I just barley reach 400 foot pounds and the digital dyno tends to be a little on the high side. Reality is probably closer to 350 at the flywheel. But if I upgrade the cam I am getting it much closer to MAX and the Galaxie is a heavy car so it may not be worth the risk. I won't be running slicks or dumping the clutch but I still drive hard and if the 351 gets any stronger I think I may be pushing my luck. It's easy to think, more, bigger, and better and I know I would be happier with more torque but is it worth the extra $ to put the transmission at risk?
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Day, which digital dyno software are you using?
BB1
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Bullet Bob wrote:
Day, which digital dyno software are you using?
It's an old windows program called dyno 2000. I have used it so many times when wanting to know how to changing something is going to affect an engine. I have always looked at it as a "relative" indication. In other words I know it calculates high so I don't take the top numbers as gospel, BUT I do look at the way the power and torque curves change in relation to one another based on different configurations. So for example in the case of this cam swap I am gaining just around 11% increase in torque and that number I feel is accurate. If my actual numbers at the flywheel are closer to 350 than with the new cam I can probably expect to see something in the neighborhood of 390 give or take.
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Thanks Day.
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DC wrote:
Yes the Lunati is the one. More fun torque curve for sure. A few more HP at high revs just means you get to sweep up smaller pieces when it comes apart.
Good one!!
6s6
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When I changed to the roller cam I tried to go with the less expensive lifters. The lifters were machined wrong at the bottom length allowing the oil galley to unport allowing loss of oil pressure. The Comp cam lifters were machined properly. I was able to discover that with the help of MS.
Last edited by HudginJ3 (7/19/2020 9:54 PM)
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